Nearfields for audiophile listening?

Just want to say, and I've said it before, that the Paradigm Atom v.5's are treating me very very well in nearfield. I have a laughable chain, with Roon->Macbook->Gungnir MB->Nobsound TPA3116->Paradigm Atoms sitting atop these goofy rubber triangular risers. But even if it's occasionally edgy with punk rock, it's mostly just so coherent. Listening to Keith Jarrett's Vienna Concert right now, and it's so lovely - timbre is almost as good as Gungnir Multibit->Mjolnir 2->Focal Clear's, and detail is great even if obviously not as good as the Clears. But still. So good.

 

There's nothing laughable about your system. Any system that gives anyone musical pleasure is the opposite of laughable.

Inexpensive? Sure. Nothing wrong with that. It gives you more money to put gas in the car and food on the table.

I've fallen into a forced love affair with class D amplification (forced by limited desktop real estate & sealed/acoustic suspension 2-way speakers that demand serious amping). There's some terrific class D out there now; it's no longer the bad joke it was 20 years ago when some of the few class D amps out there sounded uniquely awful.

 

Thank you, better said. What I mean by laughable is that it's kind of ridiculous that I have a $1k DAC playing through a $30 amp and speakers that were once $300 and now can be had for $100-$150, and for nearfield it's wonderful. For giggles I tried to replace the Gungnir with a SMSL M500 that I had lying around, and it was decidedly meh in comparison. I also tried replacing the Nobsound with an Aegir, and while it was better, it didn't get noticeably better until I was playing at volumes that I never would in my office. So perhaps I'm becoming a source-first audiophile. Though I did just buckle up and purchase a Folkvangr for when I don't want to listen to my budget 2-channel awesomeness. $1800 of amplification for my headphones, $30 for my speakers. Love it.

 

I had a Gungnir on loan for a bit to evaluate a headphone amp I built. I connected my $20 amp + $60 speakers to it as well for the convenience of not jumping between DACs.

I wasn’t expecting much as I thought the class D chip amp was going to limit everything but it ended up sounding way better. Obviously didn’t change FR but there was more coherency in what I heard.

 

Not sure if this is the correct place to ask. I'm very new to nearfields - haven't had speakers on my desk since I was a kid. I'm looking for a good sound for games, movies and music. I'd like them to sound big and engaging for movies and games and have good imaging. For music I'd like a clean sound.

1. Volume control. I'm considering the Yamaha HS8 - I would run it off Bifrost 2 but not sure what preamp to use in between the dac and the monitors. It could possibly be another headphone amp with preamp capabilities - in which case I'd like something to work well with HD800S (but not the Jot2 as it's staging left something to be desired). I was thinking Lyr 3+ but its SE only - and that spot is taken by SW51+ : )

This is the room:


The table is 30cm away from the back wall. From back wall to front wall its only 2.6 meters. The ceiling is pretty low as well - 2 meters. There is a large empty space on the left as there is no door to the main room.

2. How should I place the monitors? I was thinking of just adding some books where the SW51 currently stands and similarly on the right and placing the monitors on top, or should I use some specific holders?

 

I'd recommend starting with an inexpensive TPA3116 "integrated" amp for starters - cheap and may be perfectly clean for nearfield listening. Spend $40 on a Loxjie A10 or $70 on a Fosi BT20a (or one of the other models if you don't want bluetooth); Fosi has an official store on AliExpress and you can get things on 11.11 sale for the next couple days for nearly 50% off what you'd pay in the US if you're willing to wait a couple weeks. Feed it from the Biffrost. That way you have a separate volume control, a tiny little box; I mounted mine under my desk near the front. If that doesn't make you happy, return the cheap little bugger to Amazon. In that setting, the separate power/volume and size are key usability factors, and all I want is clean power - I'm not looking for nearly as much refinement as I would in a proper 2-channel system.

As far as speaker placeent, just get a pair of the Audioengine D2 speaker stands or improvise something wood that has a similar angle and can support your speakers so you can point the drivers toward you - that's the most important thing.

I'm all for having great speakers - but my experience is cheap amplification is your friend unless you have something lyiing around in which case free is your friend. And usability of volume trumps luscious amplification.

Others will disagree, but hope this helps.

 

Like they say about cameras, the best amplifier is the one you've got with you? It's certainly a whole heap better than nothing

 

I've had a number of powered speakers in my desktop system. If you have 30 cm behind powered speakers, that's more than enough to not really care whether the powered speakers are ported (most are) or sealed/acoustic suspension.

Rather than placing them on books, ideally you'd put them on dense foam or other material that will do 2 things: decouple them (in vibration sense) from the desktop; and by adding 1 inch or more in height, lessen slap-echo from the woofer on the desktop. I use a pair of Auralic MoPads under each speaker...it works well:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2950575763...RIr9sUV6/SG3hXg9kO7GBNtLDs|tkp:Bk9SR5LR3uaLYQ

 

HS8 is an active monitor. Would not require a Class D amp. You could use a JBL Nano patch on the Bal out of the Bifrost. Or Mackie Big Knob passive.

Books are good to find out how high you want to have your speakers above the table.

 

I have Dynaudio Emit M10 and frankly never compared them to anything better (only cheaper and worse). Using as table nearfields. Do you think they are a bottleneck of my system in any way or don't bother? In general everything feels pretty good except I am curious what I'm missing in this life.

 

We're all missing something (audio something) in our lives. That never changes no matter how great your stuff is.

Dynaudio has a great rep, but to really answer your question, I'd need to know some things you leave out:

• What amp are you using? This speaker is only moderate efficiency/sensitivity & may need real power to get lively
• How close is it to the back wall? That may matter because it's a rear ported/bass reflex design
• Do you listen to music soft, medium, or loud? Small 2 ways are usually OK for soft and medium, but maybe not so much for loud
• What kind of music do you listen to? Some genres can swamp a small 2-way with a 5.5" woofer (electronic music, rap, reggae), while other genres won't
• Do you have a sub in your system? If yes, how is it wired to the rest?
  
• Biggest question of all: do you look at these speakers and wish they were bigger? Smaller? Different? Or are you basically satisfied with what you hear and see?

I went through a long journey to get to where I am w/this nearfield home office system. I had 5 or 6 different pairs of speakers along the way. I discovered a few things about my own sonic requirement:

1. I need power in the lower mids/upper bass, because live music has real power there. So I moved up from a 4.5" woofer to a 6" woofer to a very powerful 6.5" (ATC SCM 12 Pro passive monitors) to a powerful 8" (KEF 102.3, big 2-ways currently in the system). The bigger the woofer got, the more desktop I surrendered to the speakers. But the tradeoff is worth it.
2. And because the speaker are pretty close to the back wall, I discovered the hard way that ported speakers, especially ones with ports in the back, are not a good choice. But sealed/acoustic suspension speakers absolutely are the right choice. They sound better and behave better in this system.
3. And I always had to have a sub--a good one, not a cheapie. Currently using a JL Audio e110 (10" sealed sub). Arranging the crossovers is a whole other topic...had to work that out, as well.

I'm very happy with the system I gradually built here. Still have those wonderful ATCs and will swap them in for the KEFs now and then...

 

Oh thanks Pharmaboy, this is very detailed! Let me go through this:

• I think my system is very balanced: RapberryPi -> Bifrost2/64 -> Slageformers -> Aegir. It has enough power, I mostly listen at 11 o'clock. Full volume will probably destroy my speakers, Aegir is not that weak. I listen while I work so it can't be loud anyway. No woofer, I really doubt I need more bass. I would appreciate more tight bass though.
• Backwall is close 1.5 ft but rotated at 30 degrees and I large wooden diffusors. I can build more diffusors in the corners if you suggest. That's the easiest upgrade at little cost.
• Soft to medium. The speakers are really only 3 feet away I hear every whisper and a lot of plankton. However who knows what I'm missing. I tried to step away and listen loud just to see what will happen. The soundstage is totally gone in that case because speakers are only 4 ft apart so hard to tell what they are capable of.
• I listen absolutely all music: symphonic, piano, vocals, organ, opera, crossover, musicals, acoustics, jazz, blues, rock'n'roll, rock, pop, electronics, indie, garage bands. Except rap, sorry. Which music sounds best by quality compared to other? Probably acoustics, jazz, piano and electronics.
• I am not sure if I'm satisfied with size. I have no idea how a bit larger speakers would sound in this setup. Maybe I would be interested if mids are more separate from lows. I am not sure 3-way speakers of that size is a good idea. By size I would only fit 2.5 inches larger speakers. 9 inches wide probably the limit at my desk or I need to buy another house.
• I absolutely don't even think about woofer, or I will have to have another wife.

 

And thank you for a very detailed reply. First comment: speakers used for a nearfield system play by different rules than open-air 2 channel systems. If you sit between the speakers and close to them--that is the sound you care about, not what happens when you step away. I have worked in my home office for ~25 years, and all I care about is what the sound is like close up. When a friend comes here and sits in my chair, I sit on the nearby couch and the sound is unbalanced and terrible (but that's OK since I rarely sit there and seriously listen).

From what I'm hearing you might be able to fit a slightly larger speaker, but not much larger. Depth is important. Some of the better speakers are deeper than they are wide. If you had a speaker 9" wide by 12" deep (for example), it would be taller than your Dynaudios, but still might fit. I'm just speculating...which doesn't mean much.

Given how close you are to the rear wall, probably the most significant sonic change you could make is by trying sealed speakers, which interact less with room boundaries. I like the sound of bass from sealed speakers--the quality of the bass (to my ear) sounds punchier and more accurate than on ported speakers. Here's an example of a high-quality sealed 2-way: the ATC SCM11 v2

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/speakers/atc-scm11-v2-bookshelf-speakers/

You can probably find them used.for quite a bit less.

BUT...the Aegir wouldn't be enough for any sealed speakers I know of.

So, since you basically like your system and appreciate your music through it, I'd say don't change a thing until you have some bucks to play with. Then try the ATCs (or their equivalent) with a more powerful amp.

PS: Re this: "Which music sounds best by quality compared to other? Probably acoustics, jazz, piano and electronics." In my experience, only good speakers can convincingly portray the quieter acoustic genres of much like the ones you mention. I've never heard any Dynaudios, but if acoustics, jazz, and piano sound good on them. you should probably stay with them.

PS-2: This is really funny: "I absolutely don't even think about woofer, or I will have to have another wife."

Judge: "What is the reason for this divorce petition?"

Your Lawyer: "Size of woofers, your honor."

 

Thanks!
"BUT...the Aegir wouldn't be enough for any sealed speakers I know of."
Yeah looks like it will be a long quest, because no way I can afford to replace Aegir. Its price/performance is so good that I will rather keep it for life.

 

Since it was brought up earlier, there are a couple used SCM11's here (not a huge savings from new, but still better than nothing):
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/books...1-v2-bookshelf-speakers-scm-11-cherry-pair-1/
https://tmraudio.com/speakers/books...c-scm11-v2-bookshelf-speakers-black-ash-pair/

With the Aegir you will get roughly peak 97dB

 

Quad S1 is the best speaker I've heard around a grand in many years. Don't be temped by the S2 for 'more' S1 is more right/neutral with a quieter box etc.

 

I've been interested in both Quad speakers for some time. What stopped me in both cases was a smaller woofer than I'd like; but most of all, they're vented designs with a port in the back. I know from experience that doesn't work well in my close-to-back-wall placement situation.

But many people say very nice things about both Quads.

 

The S1 is tight and doesn't need much space. If you get a chance, try them. Worst case, add some resistance to the port.

 

(just posted this on another thread that appears dormant ... it belongs here, too)

I'm about to embark on a new desktop audio speaker adventure. Going against my own preference for acoustic suspension/sealed 2-ways in my nearfield desktop application (with little room between backs of speakers and back wall, meaning sealed designs cause the least boundary effects here) -- I just bought a cherry (wood & condition) pair of Harbeth 30.1s from a UK dealer. Here's my rationale:

1. I only heard Harbeths once -- a pair of 40.1 at a New York audio show -- and was immediately smitten. Those speakers just had a "rightness," harmonically and tonally, even in show conditions. I've been curious about the 30.1s for years
2. I know they will fit on this desktop. I know because the sealed 2-ways currently installed (vintage KEF 103.2s) are nearly identical in volume and very close in L/W/H
3. And the 30.1s, while bass reflex design, locate the port on the upper corner of the front of each speaker, where it is able to do the least harm via interacting with the room

Well, f**k it--the fact is I just want to hear the damn things.

If the 30.1s work out well here, I may end up selling another terrific pair of 2-ways that gave me a couple years of listening pleasure here: ATC SCM12 Pro's. That's a fascinating sound, very forceful, yet tuneful; high resolution yet also musical. After owning the 12 Pro's, I'm an ATC believer.

If they don't work out, I'll sell them. Courtesy of getting a better price overseas than I ever see in pairs F.S. here, I shouldn't have too much trouble doing that.

to be continued ...

 

Unfortunately they're rear ported but a great bookshelf size speaker I've heard lately is the Quad Revela 1. The other thing I clearly prefer to the Harbeths are ProAc D2 in either dome or ribbon config.