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Putin's War With Ukraine (and democracy, freedom, self-determination, etc.)

Discussion in 'SBAF Blogs' started by purr1n, Feb 25, 2022.

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  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    No, I illustrated the value of sales of prior generation weapons.

    Whatever Finland wants to do. They can do it with the Europeans. I don't see why America which is an ocean away needs a mutual destruction pact with Finland if Russia attacks. Finland has done fine in the past and has kicked Soviet's asses.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    purr1n, Mar 4, 2022
    #81
  2. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Another casualty:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/03/arts/music/anna-netrebko-met-opera-ukraine.html

    "“It is a great artistic loss for the Met and for opera,” Peter Gelb, the company’s general manager, said in a statement. “Anna is one of the greatest singers in Met history, but with Putin killing innocent victims in Ukraine there was no way forward.”"

    Here is an idea Mr. Gelb - try harder. Really, try reaching down between your legs, grab a hold of whatever you have, and try to being a grown-up with some semblance of courage. Any "manager" can react, go with the passions of the moment, or otherwise "manage" with no more wisdom then a teenager.

    Anna's statement is mature, honest, and cognizant of the tragic sense of living in history:

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?st...=100044532005512&m_entstream_source=permalink

    "I have taken some time to reflect because I think the situation is too serious to comment on without really giving it thought.

    First of all: I am opposed to this war. I am Russian and I love my country but I have many friends in Ukraine and the pain and suffering right now breaks my heart. I want this war to end and for people to be able to live in peace. This is what I hope and pray for.

    I want to add one thing, however: forcing artists, or any public figure, to voice their political opinions in public and to denounce their homeland is not right. This should be a free choice. Like many of my colleagues, I am not a political person. I am not an expert in politics. I am an artist and my purpose is to unite people across political divides."
     
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    crenca, Mar 4, 2022
    #82
  3. roshambo123

    roshambo123 Friend

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    It will be a very weird irony if Russia's inability to take Ukraine by force results in NATO alliances dissolving.
     
    roshambo123, Mar 4, 2022
    #83
  4. Beefy

    Beefy Friend

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    Never in my life has Europe been so united. I can't see the USA walking away from that, to let the EU/NATO become yet another superpower that it is disillusioned from.
     
    Beefy, Mar 4, 2022
    #84
  5. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Its fine if America does not care about Europe, I agree the EU should defend themselves - Britain and France are both nuclear armed countries so should not need the US. Not needing the US is something that could spread widely though. US would have to accept their lack of any influence in numerous global spheres going forward.

    I assume you disagree with the defense pact with Taiwan as well on the same grounds, and that is a totally valid viewpoint, in which case they really should just capitulate now and get it over with. I'd like to think Winnie is watching the isolation Russia is facing now though and perhaps having at least some minor second thoughts.
     
    Kernel Kurtz, Mar 4, 2022
    #85
  6. mediumroast

    mediumroast Facebook Friend

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    I was thinking the same thing.

    It might be better if most of the world got into Alliances.. Maybe East and West to keep it balanced. The mutual understanding that you don't "mess around" with defense and getting along is a high priority. This might be an utopian goal but a democratic defense union isn't a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    mediumroast, Mar 4, 2022
    #86
  7. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    We always have. Would take space aliens for us to form an alliance of all humans though, and even then it would be sketchy.
     
    Kernel Kurtz, Mar 4, 2022
    #87
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Dude, there is no US defense pact with Taiwan. That ended in 1980 when the USA got in bed with Deng Xiaoping (China) as a buffer against the USSR. The USA doesn't even officially recognize Taiwan as a country. Nixon and Kissinger pulled the rug under Taiwan in the UN. Pushed the UN to give China recognition and fucked the people on the island by removing any international recognition of Taiwan as a country. This is the reason, to this day, we see stupid shit like "Chinese Taipei" instead of Taiwan in the Olympics.

    Go f**k yourself because that's a snarky comment based on your lack of education in the matter. That's so f'ing insulting - like saying: why doesn't Canada capitulate and become the 51st state of the USA?

    OK. Let me explain this to you. The reason the people of Taiwan don't want to "just capitulate" is because the people there have fought and suffered for hundreds of years under colonial (Portugal, the Dutch, Japan) and external powers. Most recently, Taiwan was ruled by a minority consisting of ex-China exiles (losers vs Mao) from 1949 to 1990ish. Martial law (including massacres, secret police, detentions, murders) was instituted from 1949 and ended in 1986. (I remember all the secret anti-government meetings my grandfather and my dad held). Since then, the people on the Island started to figure out how to get a pretty good working democracy which is arguably freer than that of the USA. For obvious reasons, the people don't want to give this up. They aren't going to "just capitulate". So again, go f**k yourself.

    Also, because I expect another uneducated snarky response from you: Taiwan may be pushing things a bit with refusing to agree to the nebulous "1992 Consensus", but no executive branch politician there has been dumb enough to declare full independence, poking the Pooh, causing Xi to go apeshit, and thus put the USA and the rest of the world into a difficult position. I know Zelenskyy is a hero to the West right now with his people getting killed by the Russians, but Tsai Ing-wen is a much more pragmatic politician.

    And no, I don't think the USA should actually come the Taiwan's aid - but I do think the USA should help in some way such as sell weapons instead of China-appeasement shit like under W Bush and Obama. This is the least the USA can do because USA fucked Taiwan so over that it cannot have official relations with other countries, and since 2000 has been primarily responsible for making China into a world power that acts badly not only towards its neighbors, but also to the hand that feeds it. Before the USA started selling its own workers out in 2000, China had no chance of invading Taiwan. Taiwan was militarily superior.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    purr1n, Mar 4, 2022
    #88
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Some harken back to the bipolar world, the Cold War, NATO vs. Warsaw Pact, USA vs USSR as being good because of its stability. There was lots of rhetoric, but because of nukes, no one was insane. There was one enemy instead of many, just pick a side. I had friends in college who visited to the USSR, Moscow, and remarked how clean the city was and how the trains ran on time.

    The problem with this view is that it is nostalgia. I'm not sure the people who lived in the countries ran over by Soviet tanks liked the experience. Also, we've seen many ex-Soviet nations flourish without the yoke of the USSR.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    purr1n, Mar 4, 2022
    #89
  10. mediumroast

    mediumroast Facebook Friend

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    That West and East analogy wasn't very good.. Yep. Countries that agreed with the modern way of life are kind of standing up in defense of the rules-based world order that some countries want to change. I think there is no other way but serious co-operation regarding international values and goals. Many Chinese are better off because they actually embraced the free markets and capitalism. Not going to comment on how the state operates there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
    mediumroast, Mar 4, 2022
    #90
  11. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    OK. I'll ignore the whole idea when it is mentioned going forward then.

    Does the US have such ambitions? Not sure how NATO would deal with that. I really don't think either of your parties would want us.

    The reason the people of Ukraine don't want to "just capitulate" is because the people there have fought and suffered for hundreds of years under colonial and external powers too.

    Sure. Should be careful to not offend Winnie or Putin. Freedom feels just like that.

    I'm all for selling them weapons. I did not know it had stopped. Would be more politically palatable to give them nukes than Estonia.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    Kernel Kurtz, Mar 4, 2022
    #91
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Indeed. I admire that. It's the reason why I sent a good chunk of money over the National Bank of Ukraine. If you feel as strongly as I do about people's right to self-determination, you can too: https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/nat...srahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi

    What's going on in Ukraine really resonates with the people of Taiwan: https://www.reuters.com/world/china...ate-salary-ukraine-relief-efforts-2022-03-02/

    That's easy for a Westerner who can say whatever the f**k they want without consequences. In China, if you blab, you can disappear. If Tsai Ing-wen says the wrong thing, that may lead to war. However, there is nothing stopping individuals in Taiwan from expressing support for Taiwan independence. In fact, there have been a few political parties with this stance.

    The advanced weapons, the latest F16 variants, where blocked. The USA continued with sales of missiles, ordinance, helicopters, spare-parts, and upgrades, but refused to sell new F16s and substantial numbers of anti-ship missiles. Basically, the stuff that could really wreck a Chinese attack. It was only until 2019 when the USA agreed to sell x66 F16Vs, upgrading the remaining x140 A/B models, and sell a bunch of SLAM-ERs and Harpoons.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    purr1n, Mar 4, 2022
    #92
  13. penguins

    penguins Friend, formerly known as fp627

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    My main concern is that current military service terms are only a few months long now in Taiwan and there is no more conscription. While I believe in a volunteer military for so many reasons, when you combine both factors with the fact that the island only has ~24M people on it (with most people being 40+ no less) how will Taiwan maintain enough manpower and expertise in the military this way? Even basic hit and run tactics take some basic knowledge, much less flying an F16 out of a mountain-side bunker.

    That and IIRC most polls I saw stated that most of the population of Taiwan have no hope in case of China doing anything due to "too many people / missiles / stuff ". Granted, I don't know how good the polling was, how biased or not the sources were, etc. but I do believe this is a valid concern regardless, both on the numbers side and the "defenders don't have hope" side.

    edit: Anyways, sorry for the detour, back to Ukraine.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2022
    penguins, Mar 4, 2022
    #93
  14. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Props for that. Not sure why we are arguing. Taiwan and Eastern Europe both need and deserve western support.

    That is true in many times and places. You can go along or resist as best you can. Not my place to judge anyone's choice.

    Mea culpa for thinking the US had Taiwan's back then. Still a believer in the concept of NATO though regardless.
     
    Kernel Kurtz, Mar 4, 2022
    #94
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You are believer in NATO because you don't have to pay for it and your government didn't allow your companies to sell out Canada to China. The USA cannot afford to fight against two fronts: Russia and China, particularly when the EU has become much friendlier and made entreaties toward Russia and China.

    Of course the calculus may have changed now.
     
    purr1n, Mar 4, 2022
    #95
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Yes, China protested the sales and the POTUS of two successive administrations decided appeasement was the way! Now in 2022, we are like WTF did we do? How did Taiwan get so far behind and not keep up? Bruh. This is typical of US foreign policy.

    Even today, it's not clear if the US has Taiwan's back. LOL, when Biden said (he's said a lot of dumb things throughout his career): "Yes, we have a commitment to do that." in response to protecting Taiwan, the White House had to walk it back: “The president was not announcing any change in our policy and there is no change in our policy.”

    The current American policy is "strategic ambiguity" with respect to Taiwan. IMO, this is the best approach. There's no need to poke the Pooh. Status quo (when there are no missiles flying and there is peace) is sensible politics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
    purr1n, Mar 5, 2022
    #96
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    You also don't have people hating you on the other side - Canada - when the shit hits the fan. No one ever says this is a proxy war between Canada and Russia. They say it's a proxy war between USA and Russia. Or the USA fucked over Serbia. Not NATO fucked over Serbia or Canada fucked over Serbia.

    Sick and tired of America getting involved in this shit. Does the USA get any appreciation? Nope. Instead we get f**k you, you Americans pay for this while we let our own armed forces rot. Only the three ex-Soviet baltic states, UK, Poland, Romania, Croatia, and Greece are really carrying their weight. France barely. The rest are slacking. And it's a measly 2% of GDP commitment that's asked for - when USA is 3.52%. And BTW, Canada is major slacker at 1.39%.

    I believe in self-defense pacts too. A European led self-defense pact.
     
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    purr1n, Mar 5, 2022
    #97
  18. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

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    Yeah Canada like all small powers kind of gets a pass that way. We still pull our weight in any war for freedom though, and feel our share of hate as well.

    That is fair. I'm not convinced America will ever give up wanting to have some say though. I know Trump tried to remove the US from any and all international organizations, but we all know you won't stay away for long.

    Appreciate the respectful convo. Getting late and going to listen to some Floyd. Cheers!
     
    Kernel Kurtz, Mar 5, 2022
    #98
  19. james444

    james444 Mad IEM modding wizard level 99

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    "I am not a political person. I am not an expert in politics. I am an artist and my purpose is to unite people across political divides."
    "Anna's statement is mature, honest, and cognizant of the tragic sense of living in history:"

    Particularly in times like these, we shouldn't take everything people say at face value. In 2014, right after the annexation of Crimea, Anna Netrebko had no better idea than to fly to Ukraine, with a million dollar gift for pro-Russian separatists and to pose with their flag:

    https://slippedisc.com/2022/02/netrebko-regret-cannot-cover-up-her-past/

    Don't get me wrong, I'm actually opposed to cancel culture. But I'm also opposed to hypocrisy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2022
    james444, Mar 5, 2022
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  20. Collusion

    Collusion Friend

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    Most European countries are already in the NATO and thus oppose creating a parallel defence alliance. But you're right about European countries using way less money on defence than they should. I think this has mostly been Germany's fault - they have been the de facto leader in EU's politics for a while know. Now when the shit really hit the fan, they finally decided to up their military budget over the nominal 2% GDP mark. But they should've done this way before and set the example for other countries too. There has been a power vacuum in Europe, which in my opinion, is one of the reasons Putin decided to attack Ukraine.
     
    Collusion, Mar 5, 2022
    #100
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