Schiit Vidar Impression Thread - UPDATED WITH REVIEW (CHECK FIRST POST)

I'm surprised you can't reach the volume levels you've indicated with Saga and Vidar - the Maggie's may be even less efficient than 86dB in reality, and your room may be almost "over treated" and damping things too much. At any rate, if you dont want to mess with the room treatments, you need more gain from the preamp. The Saga only has a gain of 1 (0dB above the max output of the power amp). Something like Freya in tube mode has a gain of 5 (14 dB) which is a lot of gain - sounds like you may need this (or another preamp with higher gain) although I still find it kind of odd Saga can't get you where you want. Don't believe another Vidar will buy you much (or anything) without the preamp gain...although I'm not 100% sure on this as I have no experience with monoblocks.

Edit: Also what is your source/DAC and how much does this output? This could be your limiting factor if you have a low output source.

 

I've never heard the Vidar outside of a brief demo at an audio show so I don't really know what does or doesn't beat it. I really wanted to try the combo but I just cannot wait for the open-ended lead time given to me by Schiit.

I will have to see myself out of this thread for now. I ordered an Audio-GD Precision 3 power amp and NFB11.38 pre-amp/DAC. I have been extremely happy with my Audio-GD Master 10 integrated amp, so I am willing to throw a bone at this dinky P3 from Audio-GD. I don't know how it would compare to a Vidar/Saga but there seems to be more value in the Audio-GD combination. I've gained a dedicated DAC which will be a step up from what I had planned before, and complete DAC/head-amp system which I was not planning to have before. There will ultimately be more utility in this system for me. I got this combo shipped for well under $1K so it appears to be a much better value proposition. I'm very interested to see how it sounds. It's not rated on their website, but Kingwa stated the Precision 3 is good for 110W into 4 ohms. I do not listen at loud volumes so I'm not worried about not having 200W on tap.

I do want to try a Vidar, though, so I will keep my eyes peeled for a used one to come up in the future.

 

Thanks rlow for the reply. My source is a Modi Multibit with a Tascam CD player as a transport and an iFi reclocker in between. I would not even know how to measure its output but I don't think it is anything unusually out of spec. Actually what I do find unusual is turning the volume up to 3 o'clock to listen at normal volumes. All of my previous preamps or integrateds usually were quite loud at 12 o'clock or less, and 3 would be ridiculous painful distortion territory where I would never go. I assumed using more volume was normal for Saga, and seems to be from what I have read elsewhere, but I also assumed that two components that are recommended to go together would not have such limitations. Does this mean Saga cannot drive Vidar to its full rated power output? That would be odd IMHO, but hey I'm far from an expert on these things. I guess could try running Vidar with my Sony E86 and see what happens. For now I have put my old speakers back. Actually listening to them at similar volume to the Maggies makes me appreciate how good they sounded to begin with. Perhaps I should just not mess with what works (did any audiophile ever say that ever LOL).

 

@Kernel Kurtz
I second what rlow wrote. It's the Saga which limits you, not the Vidar. I had amps with half or even less the power of Vidar and hardly could go past 9 or 10 o'clock at max. in a rather big room. Saga now demands 12 o'clock at minimum to get me there. Personally I can live with that, but me too I was wondering if there was something wrong when I turned it on the 1st time.

 

@Kernel Kurtz, in addition to what others have recommended, you'll need to make sure those Maggies are out quite a bit from your walls. Less than 4 feet and they can sound extra lean, which may be contributing to your perception of volume levels.

 

Thanks Kratos and Crazychile. When I have some spare time over the weekend I'm going to hook the Maggies up to my old amp/preamp and see what happens. Being in a bedroom I'm not going to be able to do 4 feet from the wall, but 3 feet is doable. I know there are going to be compromises in a small space but I don't think that is the root of my problem. I was all set to start the endless game of moving, listening, and measuring to find the best placement I can get, but that would be getting ahead of myself at this point.

 

I believe in Jason's design of Saga, he was trying to make a preamp that was as transparent as possible, even in tube mode. Most people who know their Schiit agree he succeeded.

Part of that strategy I'm guessing, was to do as little as possible to the signal - so basically he's just passing the input signal through, and using the stepped attenuator volume control to "back down" the signal below that level. Saga doesn't boost the input signal in any way, which is probably more typical with other preamps. When you max the volume, you're basically getting the same output as if you plugged in your DAC directly to your power amp - so if this output, matched with Vidar's gain, is not enough to drive your speakers to the volume level you want due to low sensitivity or other reasons, you need to "add" extra gain to the signal.

Whether this will "overload Vidar" I'm not really sure, but I suspect you will be able to add some gain without issue, especially since Freya has a ton built in with tube mode. But Freya is considered less transparent than Saga. Integrated amps I believe are typically adding a lot of gain above what Saga+Vidar outputs, but at a certain point, they are also exceeding their rated power output and adding distortion. Trying the preamp out of your Sony may add the preamp gain you need (depending how it's designed), but likely won't sound as good.

There are people on this site that know a hell of a lot more than me about this stuff, so they can correct any BS I've spewed out here if I'm off base, or add any clarification. I'm still sort of learning this stuff myself.

Modi Mutibit has 2V RMS output - this is on the specs page on the website, and is fairly typical. Less than this I would say you might have a problem, but 2V should be ok typically. I assume your CD player doesn't have a digital volume control that's been turned down? Likely not, but worth asking.

 

Thanks again. That makes sense. I'm still learning as I go. I guess I should have done more research before I decided what to buy. I can't complain at all about the sound quality as it sits, just wish it was a bit louder. If what you say is correct then the 2V output of Modi Multibit is not enough to drive Vidar into a difficult load, but seems more than adequate into an average one. I note a number of the reviews I read of Vidar online used other pre-amps which would explain why this never came up while I was reading up on the subject. I'll update with my findings after some more experimentation. Cheers!

 

I am quite surprised by this. My 2-channel system is set up in a similarly sized room, and with less sensitive speakers (~85 dB/W) and an el-cheapo Class D 50 Watts per channel amp I hit 85 dB before reaching 12 o' clock on my SYS. Granted, my measurement isn't perfect because I'm just using an iPhone app, but it's in the ballpark. If you have a smartphone, you could download an app for kicks and see how it compares with the reading from your UMIK.

Have you tried any basic troubleshooting steps to gain insight into what's going on?
- Switch Saga into passive mode
- Change tubes and run in active mode
- Take Saga out of the system entirely
- Test out a different input on Modi Multibit (e.g., USB)
- Test out another DAC, or just a 3.5mm to RCA cable from your PC to Saga

And if you have a DMM, you might also consider:
- Measuring the rms output voltage of your Modi Multibit (e.g., play a test tone from your PC)
- Measuring the rms output voltage of your Saga (e.g., play a test tone from your PC)

Also, if you're using any fancy audiophile cables, you might try replacing them with standard alternatives to see if that makes a difference. The MG12's are the mini-Maggies aren't they? Sort of a precursor to the .7s? Jason has said that 1 Vidar is "tons" for his 1.7s. If that is only true for Freya owners, then that would be useful information for us to suss out.

 

I doubt that this will solve your problem, Kernel, but I forgot to mention, that I have a Loki in my chain. This def. makes the sound louder in active mode, but most likely not enough to satisfy you. I got it to improve the poor Spotify-SQ or of some old records. It works quite good and as a side effect, the volume hardly goes beyond 11 o'clock. My speakers sensivity is around 89/90dB.

 

OK, so that problem is solved. I did try some of the basic troubleshooting as suggested by Monacelli. Active/passive made no difference. Likewise with a LISST in place of the 6SN7. Also tried an Arcam CD player I had in the closet instead of the Modi Multibit/Tascam. Again no difference.

So I took out the Saga and put my old pre-amp back. NOW we are talking. Back to running at < 12 o'clock normal listening level, and the Vidar sounds much more like I expected it to sound. In fact I can now believe it is underrated power wise. This thing rocks.

I'm just short of the 15 days return period, so I guess the Saga is going back. Just put in an RMA request. My vintage pre ( http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-E86B.html ) has served me well for many years, and I guess it is going to be pressed into duty again for a while yet. No remote control though, and I was looking forward to playing with some tubes, so I think I am going to order a Freya. The Saga did sound amazing, I just was not aware of its limitations.

Knowing what I know now, I think when Schiit says on their website "Combine Vidar with a single-ended preamp like Saga for a complete system with insane, no-compromise performance—for just a little over a grand. " perhaps they should put a "*" next to that with some caveats. I did a fair bit of reading before buying, but I'm still far from an audio expert so this issue came as a surprise to me. I think it is unlikely I am the only one. Not a knock against Schiit, just another live and learn moment for myself. Hopefully this thread may prove useful for others going forward.

Thanks for your replies and feedback SBAF folks. I can see myself spending a lot of online time here going forward.....

 

I'm using epos epic 2 speakers 4ohm and 90db sensitivity. One vidar and saga and I have no volume issues. It goes way louder than I need and extremely pleased with the SQ.

Would the valhalla 2 in low gain work SE to a vidar ? would give a little more gain but amp to amp is weird no?

 

Hey StrangeBrew. I had no volume issues either till I changed speakers, though I certainly I had to run the volume control much further than I am used to doing. I have a better understanding now, never really considered source voltages or gain before. Up till now everything has just worked in spite of me LOL.

Had to come back and give another impression after a time out with some Alan Parsons Project. Wow. That Vidar is really amazing, hearing is certainly believing. I'm looking forward to see what the Freya can add, but I still have a pretty good smile on my face right now.

 

You're the first person I've heard of with this issue. I'm running 2 different pairs of 83.5 dB speakers (officially spec'd around 86.5 dB) with Vidar and Saga and I can get to pretty ear splitting levels in my 11x17' room. But Maggie's are different beasts I'm sure. However I know others have used this combo with other Maggies - I think Schiit may have even demoed them with some Maggies, so who knows.

I think maybe your hearing is going and you're not realizing it

 

The only gain in my system is Modi Multibit or my mm phono stage and they are pretty close volume level wise.

 

More listening. More smiles! My hearing seems fine to me, but then everyone says that don't they.... Don't get me wrong, I like loud but still hate distortion. My normal MO with any system is to try to find that point where it is working hard as designed and then back off a bit. This is for dedicated listening of course, quiet music is nice in the background if you are doing other things but it never really displays the capabilities of a system or the subtleties of the recording.

The Maggies do without a doubt have a much smaller sweet spot, and actually sound pretty bad outside it, but still the Saga turned up to the max just did not sound like it was really exercising the Vidar's capabilities (and really, turning something up to the stop just does not feel right either). Now that I have replaced it I really see what Vidar can do, and I'm very impressed. Probably if the Saga had a 6 instead of stopping at 5 we would not be having this conversation, but that little bit more sure makes a huge difference.

Anyway, that's my experience. I may absolutely be an edge case. I guess somebody has to be

 

Not to harp on a situation you're not currently able to fix, but this is the result of the small room and non-optimal speaker placement.

 

Thanks Crazychile. No disagreement here. I knew going in they were going to be too much speaker for the space. That said, inside that smaller sweet spot they sound absolutely sublime, and it's not like they are in a living room where I would care that everyone gets good sound so it works for me. Given they are replacing another set of bipolars I'm well aware of the importance of optimizing the direct/reflecting balance. The Maggies are much more directional in their bipolarity if that makes sense. My first reflection point treatments are no longer valid, and the mirror trick for finding them clearly does not apply. I know it is going to take some time to find "the perfect compromise", but that is half the fun. Moving them, listening to them, taking some more measurements with REW, and adjusting my treatments accordingly. They have better bass than I expected, but don't seem as hard to blend with the subs as I though they might be (which might be a positive side effect of the small space). They are also a little brighter, which I also expected, so playing with resistors is in the future.

I think I have a pretty good starting point though and I'm super happy so far. I think the folks at Magnepan were right on when they say in their FAQ ;

"Few of us have the room or the freedom to place speakers where they sound the best. Much of life involves compromise.

Magneplanars will sound their best very close to whatever position is the best compromise for conventional speaker placement in your room. Without being there, we have no means of improving on what you have discovered by trial and error."

Last night I listened to Roger Waters Amused to Death, and it was literally like being there. I think that is why we are all in this hobby, and I have no regrets about my current choices. Vidar and Magneplanars get two thumbs up here

 

Also, I guess technically the Maggies are dipoles, with the front and back being out of phase as opposed to my Def Techs which were in phase and would properly be called bipoles.....