Schiit Yggdrasil Less is More (and MIL and OG) Impressions + Measurements

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by purr1n, Sep 9, 2021.

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Should SBAF get a loaner Yggdrasil Less Is More?

  1. Yes, please!

    74.8%
  2. Only if there isn't anything else more interesting

    12.2%
  3. No, I would prefer for a loaner an overpriced planar that looks like it's from House Harkonnen

    6.1%
  4. Save up for something better

    7.0%
  1. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    I'll ask Mike if I can publicly tell people that "everyone" at Schiit thinks NOS sounds like ass. You never know. Maybe Schiit can be an OEM for another company that wants to sell a cheap NOS DAC, or maybe Schiit will make an Yggdrasil 3.5 with a remote control for NOS and inverse polarity.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    ^ This. Would. Be. Epic.

    I would love to see a "Schiit x Soekris" collaboration. I can only imagine the DAC2541 ladder board interfaced into the power supply and digital filter of the Yggdrasil.
     
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  3. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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  4. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    I like this idea...a lot.

    Of course, Mike has final say in anything digital, but it's definitely worth a talk.
     
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  5. Lyniv

    Lyniv Rando

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    @purr1n

    Thanks for all the detailed reviews. They are super helpful to me to read.
    Interesting to see how well the Bifrost 2 ranks in your comparisons!
     
  6. Garns

    Garns Friend

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    I would draw a distinction between incisive/sharp and edgy/strident. The A2 is the former but is NOT inherently the latter. If you've heard it as so then there is a problem upstream to fix. I know this because it took me like three years to fix the treble on my Yggdrasil. All of these factors were critical: source (PI2AES), source power supply (LPS), power filtration for source (Digibuss), grounding (dick around with plugging power cords in different configs and XLR shield connection), burrito filter (bypass it for 10x less hazy top end with less fuzz for digitus to ride on).

    I would bet that a sizeable proportion of people who have heard an Yggdrasil have heard one with fucked treble due to some combination of unresolved issues like this. And just as I would not recommend tube rolling as a way of glossing over problems upstream I would caution against analog board rolling for the same reasons (I know this is not your sitch @EagleWings but the point remains). $450 would get you most of the way to fixing the underlying problems instead!

    Of course this is not to discount the many other good reasons why different boards might suit. From Marv's great descriptions it sounds like LiM would be a downgrade for me.
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    If you are 70% sure, just buy the LIM now! World is crazy right now with parts shortages, supply-side issues, and massive demand. I'm not at liberty to give specifics - but I can say that I'm kicking myself for not buying GPUs last year and I see the situation here as being no different. Magic 8 Ball says the LIM won't last long. I'm betting in a few weeks when the odd audiophile here or there catches Jason's HF post, the Schiit site, the additional impressions from Computer Audiophile and here (I see more than a few have ordered) - they will all be sold out. I mean, the LIM costs less than TOTL GPU, and will give you many many more hours of pleasure. That TOTL GPU will be 2nd tier around this time next year.

    Truth be told, I'm probably underselling the LIM. This seems to be the only company that sells high-end DACs that doesn't fuck you when something better comes out a few years later. $450-$550 upgrades - that's utterly silly and not a money making proposition. If you know Mike Moffat, it's more important for him to know that people are enjoying his inventions than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  8. jexby

    jexby Posole Prince

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    who cares what an nVidia GPU costs?

    ^ counterpoint having the OG/A2 cards already in Yggdrasil with EC Af / BW2 amps with ZMF Verite Closed-
    I don't want $ tied up in extra cards I may/may not love/use in a daily DAC based on slight preference changes or differences in audio mastering or piano vs guitar strings.

    check your chain, if blackground or treble differences in LIM help overall- great. Grab LIM before parts shortages happen based on real or fake-world events.
    am more inclined to wait 2 years for a more revolutionary change such as Soekris or Unicorn or Posole boards offering a larger delta.

    then again if bored by the luxury travel experience of A2 sound, or I change headphones (unlikely) then LIM is an option, unless it's sold to pirates on the dark web or in texass on back alley deals.
     
  9. Cellist88

    Cellist88 Friend

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    @jexby beat me to it. Having extra parts lying around seems meh. Its like buying a new gaming mouse when your mouse is already fine. @purr1n who knows if @soekris can get the collaboration to get the 24-bit ladders in the dacs for nonsidegrade result....Wishful thinking....also I don't see this generations gpu's being 2nd tier next year because game developers aren't going to create games that no one has the hardware to run seeing that the shortage will last until 2023. It'll probably be overkill and seeing manufacturing costs and scalpers, its likely the new stuff will be even more expensive.
     
  10. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I was mostly just making fun of the situation. All the excitement and only you having heard it. I do trust your impressions more than anyone else, it's all just funny to see unfold.

    My concern is that I don't know an electronics shop here that could do the install. So it's hard to audition the LIM. If I knew a shop, I might buy the upgrade card, have it put in and listen.

    My biggest reservation is the loss of resolution. I hear a huge difference in resolution between the Gungnir A1 and Yggdrasil A2 with my SOHA so I'm assuming it's resolving enough to hear the difference in resolution between the LIM and A2. (not to mention my other amps) And I don't hear a treble lift in the A2 or have any issues with it's tonality. The comparisons to the DAC 2541 are also concerning because I preferred the tone of the Yggdrasil A2. I'm kind of turned into a resolution whore, so without being able to hear the LIM I'm sort of just in limbo land. I'm not sure I would actually like the tone of the LIM but it sounds like I would miss the resolution of the A2.

    The general description sounds great, but the specifics leave me uncertain.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    I meant get an entirely new unit. Who wants parts. If you can afford a $2k DAC, another $2 for a second system, should be no problem. I mean, we can get 6 of them for the price of an entry level MSB DAC. Can do a cool active speaker 3-way speaker system.

    And I did say 70% sure. If less than that, don't bother. Like 50/50, don't. Two-thirds, don't. Never said everybody buy this now.
     
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  12. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    I can't really afford a 2k$ DAC but for some reason I own one anyways :eek: Another 2k would mean no new transducers which are probably going to make a bigger difference.
     
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    Considering an LIM loaner. Would have liked an Audeze R loaner, but that went by quickly - all sold out. Was gonna grab a Decware, but Ampsandsound took it's spot. Was working on Kennerton to get us a loaner for their TOTL planar (take over from @ChaChaRealSmooth to get this moving again).

    Nothing else much interesting... The thing about Schiit is that their stuff is so relatively cheap so loaners are often not really necessary. I am pretty sure anyone 70% sure ordered one already.

    Maybe more Topping and high AmirNADS stuff so more people can get an idea how shitty they sound, but waste of time. The D90SE was no surprise considering they couldn't even get their higher end AKM DACs to sound better than $200 Geshelli. Serves Topping right for designing solely around AmirNADS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2021
  14. Merrick

    Merrick A lidless ear

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    Boo that Decware didn’t make the loaner cut.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    Not totally dropped, but moved back of line. I like to cycle headphones, amps, DAC, IEMs, other stuff, etc.
     
  16. EagleWings

    EagleWings Friend

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    It’s all relative. One person’s incisive/sharp will be another person’s edgy/strident. Can’t speak for the Yggdrasil A2, but the Bifrost2 comes across as over-incisive, and in turn strident, in attacks of certain type of instruments/notes (hi-hats, snares), while it lacks the necessary bite or incisiveness on the lower pitch notes/instruments. Most other good DACs I have tried have rather exhibited sufficient levels of incisiveness more uniformly across the frequency range and without veering into edgy/sibilant. Now the problem with trying to fix the strident issue on the Bifrost2 is, you also end up making the rounded attacks of lower end notes even more blunt and also making the upper treble even more smoother.

    Now I have heard the Yggdrasil is even more incisive than the Biforst2, which is the reason I skipped the Yggdrasil and went for the Wavelight. But the Wavelight has a different treble issue. I have played enough with DACs with treble issues to know that, if a DAC doesn’t work in a chain containing a decent digital source, EC BW2 and HD650, it might be better to sell the DAC and move on. Unfortunately, where I live, because of the cost that went into importing the Biforst2 and Wavelight, I won’t be able to sell em without taking a huge loss. Hence I resorted to trying tweaks such as the ones you mentioned.

    I have already spent close to $1000 on tweaks trying to address treble issues on the Bifrost2 and Wavelight (Pi2AES, Allo USBridge, Supra USB Cable, Jensen PI2XR, Supra RCA interconnect, Copper XLR interconnects, high quality power strip, EQ software). The problem with dropping $$ on a tweak is, it is really a gamble as to, if it would work in the exact same way in our system, even after doing extensive due diligence. For example, I picked up the Pi2AES, as it helped many users here with treble issues, but it didn’t work in my system. So after spending $1000 on various tweaks, the treble issues still exist on both these DACs to a small degree. I have a tube amp coming in and I hope it will help address the treble issue further (not that I am running a bright sounding SS amp right now).

    As a result, I prefer DACs which are free of inherent treble issues and don’t require these extra/special tweaks.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    ^

    I'm sure some people think you are nuts; but I know exactly what you are talking about. We are very much splitting hairs and into the realm of audioohilio nervosa myopica: there a disjointedness with the transient response between lows and highs with Bifrost 2 (and by extension the Yggdrasil A2/OG and A1/GS). I attribute much of this to the AD5791 and AD5781 parts used.

    Like you said, tweaks and band-aids, they are just that. They don't remove the issue 100% or either cause other issues. I think this is why I drawn to the Schiit Gungnir A2 and Soekris DAC2541. Tonal tilt not most people's up of tea, but I felt they were much more most cohesive with respect to transient response and timbre from lows to and highs. I found this easier to work with: changing the overall tilt is easier than trying to address one spot. (Dangerous Music Convert-2 and Burl B2 Bomber DACs are also very even tonally and cohesive from lows to high - the AD1955 and AKM4399 parts very well known for this, even back in the day).

    LIM takes me back to the Theta Gen V (the teflon board edition) when there were great audio parts like the BB PCM63. Everything after that got worse. PCM1702 stuff sounded less resolving, a bit duller. PCM1704 had... well "PCM1704 bass" which was the antithesis of "Moffat bass". People loved those smeared lows and lush mids though. UltraAnalog got right what PCM1704 wanted to do.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  18. purr1n

    purr1n Burned out

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    @Cellist88: if you can hear the difference between Gungnir A1 and Yggdrasil A2/OG with respect to plankton, and it really bothers you, good chance you may not be happy with the LIM. The LIM sits in between them, about 40% from Gungnir A1 to Yggdrasil A2/OG. I have a good idea what you listen to. For most other people, it won't matter.

    I may run the output of a few recordings of these DACs into a few ADCs. Will let members know when I have them available. Obviously will have to PM me. (Don't PM me yet!)
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2021
  19. Riotvan

    Riotvan Got lost for three weeks at Delft City Hall

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    Don't forget synergy as well, i picked my speakers which have a bit of a dark tilt to go with the A1. Sounds really balanced even in the treble to my ears but the headphone setup with a Lyr 3 and OG Clears can sound a little fucked sometimes in the highs. Most of the music i listen to is on the speakers though so they have higher prio. And there is a Sw51+ on the way and i suspect those opt's will fix some of the treble fuckery anyway.

    All i'm saying is look at the whole picture instead of focusing on one single component to magically fix all your problems.
     
  20. sphinxvc

    sphinxvc Gear Master (retired)

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    This is so helpful.

    What would it look like for the engagement category?
     

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