Strength training and building muscle

Discussion in 'Health' started by Priidik, Apr 11, 2025.

  1. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    This thread starts for the reasons that we would not pollute the Calisthenics thread with general resistance training stuff and the inspiration and interest into other modalities of resistance training.

    Want to share your ways and learn about different ways to resistance train and share their ways and experiences:
    This is the place!

    Screen capture of Giulia Imperio for attention and the humble realization how a tiny woman will outlift all of you.
    Kuvatõmmis 2025-04-11 113759.png
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2025
  2. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Strength is measure of how much intensity you can put up with while doing a movement from start to finish successfully (in border case isometric).
    There is component of movement pattern (form, technique), muscle size and its ability to contract on internal structure level, neural activation (motor units, high threshold motor units), tendon and ligament toughness and the way they form levers with bones, catecholemine (adrenaline, dopamine etc) dynamics and psychological tuning and of course genetics.

    Free and great online resources:
    • - Pavel Tsatsouline (interview @ Hubberman), also books. The kind of dude who does not seek clicks and views on social media - is made out of pure knowledge, the obscure kind, and crap ton of experience.
    • - Andy Galpin (podcast). A coach and scientist on muscle and human movement system. Enough said.
    • - Dr Stuart McGill (reading his second book already). He is a back specialist, but do not be discouraged. He has worked with top athletes from various fields. The level of insight this legend of a man has for movement, strength and ability training is breath taking. Personally I liken him to myself for the lifestyle this guy has - living in the woods and getting his hands dirty now and then.
    Any ability training - strength among them - has massive and understated component of compounding effect over time.
    The increments add up. This is why a 40 year old dude with same or less muscle mass who have practiced for 20 years will outlift and outperform a 20 year old.
    It has been said that it can take up to 10000 repetitions to hone in any skill to a master level. I experienced this to hold much truth.
    Take a stonemason with years of practice on manual labour and ask a bodybuilder to help him build a stone wall with heavy stones - the bodybuilder would struggle although he'd outlift the stonemason in gym on bench press and leg press. I have seen this kind of thing many times - a strong muscular guy struggle at real world strength applications.

    Strength is specific.
    Doing bench press gets you stronger at bench press - the carry over to many other strength aspects is surprisingly mediocre.
    The more simplified the lift the less carry over. Machines are the worst, then there are barbells, then dumbells, then kettlebells and then real life objects, like logs and stones - stuff that is difficult to hold on to. The more degrees of freedom an object that you lift or move has, the more there is carry over.

    Practical strength has some commonalities.
    • Strong and big hands - grip strength, strong fingers
    • Strong back and robust spine
    • Strong legs
    • Hip drive
    Practical strength has a few more interesting and counter-intuitive aspects:
    • more muscle strength does not always equate better performance - despite enormous glutes ability to lift a heavy object from the ground can be bottlenecked by weak grip or weak back
    • movement pattern is everything - a jacked up inexperienced guy can be less effective on a complex lift than a smaller guy with honed in technique
    • It takes mental drive - you need to believe you can lift the thing!
    • Ligament and tendon toughness and bones matter as much as muscle. Take a look at elite arm wrestling. They are strong. But the contribution of muscle's ability to win there is only a fraction. All arm wrestlers can bicepcs curl some serious weights - pound for pound none like this Georgian guy Irakli Zirakashvili - he did something insane like 110 kg on strict curl. Yet, he is not among the very top in arm wrestling.
    • Muscles and tendons have strain and pressure sensors built in. Without proper training you can be limited by these sensors cutting off the signal from motor neurons way before you muscle or tendon would run out of capacity. Great example is any lift you need to grip with your arms. Your main movers (lateralus dorsi, glutes, quadraceps etc) won't even fully kick in if the brain detects limited ability to grip. The first thing a say to noobs attempting to better pullups is to work on their grip.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2025
  3. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Hypertrophy is dead simple - it is growth in muscle volume (or mass, if it makes easier to weight things).
    Anything that increases muscle volume is regarded as hypertrophy. That is even water retention due to creatine and high carb diet.

    Training for hypertrophy is 100x more simple that training for ability.
    Simple does not mean easy.
    Hypertrophy only happens through suffering - that is, it can be pleasurable suffering.

    There are many good online resources for hypertrophy training:
    - Dr Mike Israetel is my favorite here - he has some background on strength which makes him more credible to me.
    Coach and comedian rolled into one for extra entertainment value.
    - Dr Brad Schoenfeld for more academic and research based take
    - Dr Andy Galpin for when you really want to tune in to physiological mechanisms inside the muscle

    Dr Mike put out a nice little definition in his interview with Mitchell Hooper (the Strongman of 2023):
    I summarise ''muscle appears to grow in response to cumulative intensity stimulus,
    which roughly means it will integrate all the intensity bits you put in. That is why it is possible to built muscle size with 30 reps as well as with 5 reps. ''

    5 reps will be significantly more intense per rep - but is the sum total intensity accumulation the same?
    There appears to be a threshold from where the intensity starts to count. Too little, and it does nothing for hypertrophy. This is where the up to 2 reps in tank comes from. The movement has to be challenging.
    The practical outcome appears to be that less experienced people do better with less reps - up to 15 or so. The reason is, it takes serious discipline to grind out the 30.-th rep to true 1..2 RiR with good form.
    My own gut feeling is that low reps are better, at least for compound movements, because the intensity starts from rep 1. If you go over 10 reps, the first 3 reps are easy.
    Hypertrophy can be trained with any movement. Isolation, compound - and there are hundreds of choices of movements that all have the capacity to turn up great results.

    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0EtYwNWsSf4

    Latest science is brought hypertrophy best practices closer to strength principles. Full range of motion, challenge at muscle lengthened position, clean controlled technique. This is a refreshing direction to me. The gymbro bodybuilder style training of yesteryear is something I do not appreciate. Sloppy technique, mircro ROM movements, useless movement patterns and weak efficiency even for the sole purpose of building mass.

    The game is different than the strength game - at least on advanced level.
    The advanced body builders find ways to get more hard sets done while minimizing fatigue, not for performance, not for useful skill - just to eek out a bit more mass. The effect is significant when compared to strength trained people of similar caliber. The smart ones still do compound movements, but to a lesser degree and with lighter weights than in strength protocols. The rest is isolation, or limited compounds.

    • Isolation vs compound
    The thing is compound movements will not build all muscles equally. While the outcome will be strong looking body with the main drivers being huge, the smaller muscles will be less targeted - these act as stabilizers for compound lifts.
    It has been said that heavy deadlift activates every muscle in your body - while near enough true, the force linkage that moves the bar only happens through the bigger muscles.

    It is a bit like the audio analogy in discussing what components in an amplifier form a signal path - is the psu cap in the signal path or not - some say yes, others disagree. When yes, by how much?

    To really milk everything from these often stubborn auxiliary muscles (side deltoid, hip flexors, calves etc) that are not intensely targeted by compound movements, isolation is there to help.
    Then comes the fatigue component - how many deadlifts do you manage before you shoot a vertebrae out of your arse or how many heavy squats it takes to feel like never holding the barbell ever again? Not too many.
    A well trained muscle will not get that sore from compound movements for most people, the limiting factor is systematic fatigue or over use of a component in the linkage (low back) - isolation will get you the volume needed without severe systematic fatigue.
    I have not met a an advanced lifter who had never injured him/herself. Isolation helps to navigate around the injury by doing some other movement that do not fire up the injury but still gets the surrounding muscle and tendons some exercise.

    • Limited, weird and hacked compounds
    The compound movements that people seeking hypertrophy are usually different than the usual strength movements. The Romanian or stiff legged deadlift instead of regular deadlift. Hip thrusts. Single hand cable rows from weird angles. Cable extensions for triceps. The limit is the imagination. There is a proper reason why these came about - not for vanity or Instagram posts - they are more effective than the og movement. There is the force curve consideration - more intensity at muscle lengthened position is better. For some movements constant force curve is better. The worst is intensity max at contraction. Enter cables - constant resistance. Wide range of options on angle and freedom of limb movement.
    Then there is the isolation consideration - with regular rows you train all of the upper back 'thickness'. Say you wanted to focus on rear delts - face pulls with cable machine.
    Or specific area of glutes - there are some weird cable swings I see chicks do - I bet they are effective.
    Scull crushers for triceps - perhaps the best single exercise for triceps development. Should that one be called isolation or is it a limited compound? Probably depends on where you let the bar land - if it is into your nose-eyes area - it is an isolation. Behind your head, and lats get a lot of the work.

    For wholesome contour it is worth noting that hypertrophy training does not equal training for looks.
    It can also be for rehabilitation, aiding some performance movement or simply for maintaining healthy lean mass.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2025
  4. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Power is velocity x strength(force).
    The ultimate expression of human peak power generation is barbell snatch.
    Elite heavyweight men generate around 5 kW of mechanical power during a snatch or clean.
    For context an average car cruising at town speed will use less.

    Power can be broadly split into 3 categories:
    1. Instant, or peak power. This is one rep, one jump one throw.
    2. Short term. This is how ever long you can keep up anaerobic capacity. Expect sky high heart rate.
    3. Long term. That is converging with VO2max, I also very important stuff but is not subject to current discussion. This is what cyclists can put out for tens of minutes for average.

    Power is something our distant ancestors relied for survival.
    Sprint, throwing a javelin, thrusting a spear or jumping over a stream.

    Power combined with precise movement is perhaps the most complex thing achievable with biomechanics.
    Complexity wise: hypertrophy training <<< strength training <<<< power training

    My personal favourite power application is splitting firewood. Hitting something with an axe precisely is hard enough; it takes skill, dexterity and practice. Now do it with power behind. To hit the hairline of the log with full power takes 100x more practice on top.

    The general theme of using power in life is it is fun.
    Be it 400 kW in a car, a 1000cc superbike, firearms, explosives, rockets and what not.
    Exercises and movements you can do with your body are no different.
    Jumping, throwing, sprinting and smashing things is exiting. More the reason avoiding power movements is a sad ignorance.

    For health perspective, practicing movements with great deal of power weekly have been linked to improved testosterone levels and better cardiovascular health. If you are going to use power, it will have components of high heart rate, adrenaline, high mental focus and significant muscle activation.

    How power turns into a performance is not fully intuitive, either. I read this from McGill's book that the best athletes he has examined have not been the strongest, or having the highest muscle activation even. It is those who are better at relaxing muscles at precisely the right moment.
    Martial arts are great example - throwing an effective punch requires pre loading what ever reactive springy stuff you have (tendons, facia), then initial burst of power, then moment of full relaxation and just before impact everything turns into concrete to ground the energy and vector everything into the target.

    With resistance training equipment there are many ways to develop power.
    Here with skill and power level as prerequisite:
    • Explosive pushups (advanced)
    • Explosive pullups (very advanced)
    • Muscleups (very advanced)
    • All Olympic lifts (very advanced, elite)
    • Kettlebell clean (beginner, intermediate)
    • Kettlebell swing (intermediate)
    • Kettlebell snatch (advanced)
    • Throwing heavy medicine ball (beginner)
    • Explosive jumping squat with weight (beginner, advanced)
    • Dragging a weighted sled (beginner)
    Most heavy physical jobs require power:
    • Just yesterday I hauled two trailers worth of timber into a garage attic. It takes strength and power to get the job done. And, boy some endurance as well.
    • Swinging any heavy tool - sledgehammer, axe or scythe or shovelling dirt - has big power component in it. Both peak and short term.
    • Lifting heavy objects to some height - heavy stones to a truck bed, or logs into a trailer has similar power requirement as cleaning a barbell. Powering through makes the movement more efficient, even if you could do it with slow pure strength.
    • Working with firewood. First I log them and throw the logs to a trailer - power. Then split them with axe - power. Then I throw the split firewood into a pile - power.
    • Dragging anything heavy requires short-term power.
    • Carrying heavy stuff requires surprisingly a lot of power.
    There was a big dude working in a small neighbouring farm not far from me. He was a former Creco-roman wrestler and weighed some 130 kg. He could lift half of the tractor up in the air but could not for the life of it start a chainsaw. He lacked the speed component.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2025
  5. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    My top 5 strength exercises:

    Incline Barbell Press: For chest, delts, triceps
    • Incline is essential. Better ROM, full (sternal and clavical) chest stimulation. I like 30 degrees.
    • Always control negative and pause on chest. Do not bounce.
    • Chest tends to hit failure quickly. I like 1 or 2 top sets in the 5-8 range, then a single backoff set with reduced weight in the 8-12 range.
    Pull-Up: For back and arms, "width" focused
    • Grip variation is a hot topic, but I like neutral grip. Can mix in wide grip but ROM will reduced at the top.
    • A few different ways to progress this, but it comes down to adding weight (belt) and/or reps. Use AMRAPs/Myo-reps if you're hitting plateau
    Barbell Row: For entire back
    • No need to be a form cyborg. Let the bar pull you down at the bottom which will slightly round your back. When you row up, you should naturally bring your chest up (which activates your erectors) while you pull the bar to your belly button (which activates all the pulling muscles around your scapula and the ones that cross your shoulder)
    • Can be done overhand or underhand for variation
    • Great exercise to grind. I like to program 1 or 2 heavy sets to neurologically potentiate before pull-ups
    Stiff-Leg Deadlift: For entire posterior chain, with focus on hamstrings and erectors
    • Hard to describe, but I do these in a way that is unlike what I see people doing with Romanian Deadlifts. Let the bar pull you all the way to your toes. Unlike conventional deadlift, do not let your hips drop. Control whole way down, touch lightly. Slight back rounding is not a problem. You should really feel your torso hinging at your hips as you pull back up. These can light you up and give you crazy DOMS.
    • I do 2-3 straight sets in the 5-10 rep range. Higher reps can be effective, but probably need to use straps to prevent grip from failing first. Gotta take these nice and slow.
    Barbell Clean / Front Squat: For leg strength (quad and glute) and absolute full-body power
    • I use these two interchangeably depending on the vibe. First one is always cleaned off the ground and dropped into a full front squat. Then either return the bar to the ground if doing cleans, or keep bar racked and proceed with front squats
    • Olympic movements have a large technical component but are rewarding IME
    • Use wrist wraps if these beat up your wrists
    • 3-6 rep range across 2-3 sets. Ton of progression potential


     
  6. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Do kettle-bells have a place here? I use them to increase my functional strength.

    Just did an extra set of leg training.
     
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  7. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Dude, your post on Cali thread about kettlebells was the tipping point to make this thread.

    I love kettlebells - they are the manliest thing you can lift that has a handle.

    GOAT-ed:
    Kettlebell snatch. Power, speed, brick-shithouse resilience throughout the body and if you do them for set of 30 with the heaviest weight you can haul, you will find out that your smart watch prediction about your heart rate max was way too conservative.

    Of course you want to build up to that. First start with two handed swings to understand what hip hinge means.
    Then practice cleans. This will build the correct movement pattern safe up to shoulder. Then do clean and jerk.
    After a while when you feel confident try snatch with a lesser weight (kettlebells do not come in half a kg increments) to safely practice the movement.
     
  8. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    I ran kettlebells only for a year or two back when I was focused on my triathalon training. They're great for endurance athletes to bridge into strength training. All KB workouts are essentially full-body and time efficient. My favorite movements:
    • Alternating Single-Arm Swings
    • Clean and Press
    • Snatch
    Now that I have a barbell setup at home and gym access at work, I have gravitated away from my kettlebell. I think I may want to acquire an adjustable kettlebell and work up to the Secret Service Snatch Test, just to see where I can stack up.

    https://www.dragondoor.com/articles...he-secret-service-snatch-test-eh/default.aspx
     
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The 20 sets thing has been perverted. 20 sets per week on a muscle isn't excessive if you have been training for a while and have hit a plateau.

    For example, 3 sets barbell squat, 2 sets sumo squat, 3 sets leg lift / sissy squat, 2 sets reverse lunge. That x2 a week is 20 sets for quads with some gluts.

    Massage is part of my recovery, although there is no scientific evidence that it works.

    With respect to recovery, I think it's going to be different for different people, intensity of training, and how long one has been doing it. Unless I decide to totally toast them, my quads don't get sore, but even then I prefer two days off for full recovery. Chest is similar, although it didn't used to be that way. My biceps and triceps only need one day of recovery. Back is horrible for me. If I do unassisted pull-ups, that screws me up for most of the week. I do deadlifts maybe once a week, although I really like going them, deadlifts are very expensive for recovery time.
     
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  10. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    One of my favourite combinations with kettle-bells is actually very simple. I use my 10KG at home and the 12KG at my local gym for this.

    My current favourite mini-routine:
    1. 10 reps of 2-handed squats (ground to hip)
    2. 10 reps of 1-handed squats (ground to hip), usually right hand first.
    3. 10 reps of 1-handed lateral lifts, lunge with right foot forward: softly land on the left knee and slowly rise up.
    4. Retreat gently to standing position, spare your knees.
    5. Gently put the kettle-bell in front of your feet again.
    6. 10 reps of 1-handed squats (ground to hip, now with the left hand.
    7. 10 reps of 1-handed lateral lifts, lunge with left foot forward: softly land on the right knee and slowly rise up.
    8. Retreat gently to standing position, spare your knees.
    9. Gently put the kettle-bell in front of you again.
    10. 10 reps 2-handed squats (ground to hip) to finish.

    Anyone can do this in one motion. The hands stay low and the legs do the work. Just good posture, balance and the legs do the heavy lifting.

    I am still a beginner and there is still a lot to learn. So many resources to check. Snatches are next for me.

    Edit: confused squats with snatches, had to make an adjustment.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 19, 2025
  11. ColdsnapBry

    ColdsnapBry Friend

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    I've been running 5/3/1 program for 15 years. It's never failed me over the years. I recommend that one.
     
  12. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    The best part about resistance training is that you can have it all.
    You can do hypertrophy, strength and power training in one session. This is what I do almost every session.

    My warmup has plyometrics and explosive reps in the final parts of warm up. That is the perfect time to do them. You are somewhat warm, still maximally fresh, you prime your nervous system for the heavy lifts - (yes it is a thing) and low reps power moves do not tax or exhaust you much at all.
    I do explosive pullups, pushups, muscleups and kettlebell snatches. A great warmup and gets heart rate going. Also kills any slumber or drowsiness.

    Then I go after my heavy strength sets (1..5 reps). When it is too cold in my barn, I do a hypertrophy range (8..10 reps) lighter set or two first - to warm up properly.
    Then at the ending of the training session sometimes I do a hypertrophy set or two to finish - as exhaustion has no meaningful detriment to hypertrophy, while it does negatively affect strength and power work.
     
  13. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    These are the most fun you can have with a barbell. My technique totally sucks, but since I have used similar movement in physical work a lot, I can slop my way through with some decent weight. Still enjoying it to bits.
     
  14. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Hard physical work is ridiculously underrated and ignored.
    On top of strength and power it builds resilience.
    If you want stuff done you are doing this half a day or longer. The angle of attack and setup is not clinically perfect.

    I go rant mode when I hear people living in a house with their own garden and shed posing how they got all their shit automated and the next discussion is how they are not motivated to go to gym to get in shape.

    Embrace the rake, the axe, the wheelbarrow and the showel!
    Ditch robot lawnmovers and automated irrigation.

    Approached right it is more fun than gym and there is a practical net result.
     
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  15. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Add pallets. Yes pallets in all kinds of shapes, sizes and materials. The grey H1 pallet is one of the worst things to grip incorrectly.
     
  16. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Oh, perhaps the most common physical job nowadays - logistics hands.

    Grabbing a pallet - or worse a pallet with stuff on it will be one tough demand on back.
    The mini pallets are just the bite size to grab by one person with long arms. Say some 20 kg on it will already create a mighty lever for your back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2025

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