Turntable advice

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by Falcor, Oct 10, 2015.

  1. Dr. Higgs

    Dr. Higgs Boson - Member

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    After reading about drfindley's VPI rig at the bay area meet and looking at the impressions on this thread, I'm strongly considering selling off a bunch of gear and picking up a walnut VPI Classic Signature SE package while they're on sale.

    I'm thinking about pairing it with either the SoundSmith VPI Zephyr or Ortofon 2M black. Does anyone have any pros/cons for either choice, or alternative recommendations for MM/high output MC carts around the $1000-1200 range? I'm open to low output MC as well, but I'm assuming it's going to bump up the cost of getting a new preamp significantly.

    I'd likely stay with my Mani or TC-750 for now, and possibly build a Bottlehead Eros or Reduction (w/ integration upgrade) at some point later in the year. Would either of the Bottlehead preamps do the VPI justice, and would they compare favorably against a modded TC-750?

    Thanks for the advice!
     
  2. drfindley

    drfindley Secretly lives in the Analog Room - Friend

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    Excellent choice!

    Ask @shaizada about what's a better MC cart (Zu Audio/Denon 103?), but I have both the VPI Zephyr and the Ortofon 2M Black and have tried them both on my table. The Ortofon 2M Black is very detailed (and picks up more crackles), but it's a little thin for me and not as rich. The VPI Zephyr isn't as detailed, but it's rich and musical which I just love. I wouldn't mind more details, but it cost $$$ to get up there. I prefer the Zephyr, Marv prefers the 2M Black.

    Wanna buy my EC Transcription? Not sure about the Bottlehead Eros, but I'd hope it's better at retaining detail than the Crack.
     
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    We should ask Bottlehead for an Eros or Reduction w/ CCS for a loaner.
     
  4. deniall83

    deniall83 Acquaintance

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    Hmm the Bottlehead Reduction with Integration upgrade looks interesting.. Might have to build one.
     
  5. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    These links may help you a bit. Sound samples from a lot of cartridges:

    http://www.connect.de/ratgeber/tona...nspieler-musikbeispiele-download-2072844.html

    http://www.analogplanet.com/content/nine-cartridge-survey-produces-audible-results
    http://www.analogplanet.com/content/nine-cartridges-compared-reviewed-and-voting-results (follow up with IDs)

    I've owned a 2M Red, 2M Black, Shure 44-7 and a Lyra Kleos.

    In order of worst to best for hifi:
    Shure 44-7. It's a DJ cart. Slightly warm, EXTREMELY forgiving of setup. Conical stylus seems to pick up less ticks then other profiles. Extremely tolerant to abuse.
    2M Red. Punchy but lacked detail. Not super great a tracking and can distort when hit with hard to handle transients like piano. For $99 it's really really good. Strongly recommended entry level.
    2M Black is much better at detail, more neutral then red. Small FR bump at 10K and noisier in the groove as previously mentioned (you can hear it in the sound samples). Not very forgiving of setup mistakes due to shibata stylus.
    Kleos best detail, stage, transients, tracking. Has the usual MC rising top end. In the case of the Kleos it's a bit bigger then usual starting around 8K and ending with a 5-7dB peak at 20K. I also hear it as a little "mid forward" despite the FR curve being dead flat until 8K. VTF must be dialed in within 0.1g for optimum performance. Other parameters are a bit more forgiving.
     
  6. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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    A Zu Denon 103 actually is a better Denon 103. They select the cartridges that have the tightest channel balance and then modify their bodies. This ends up resulting in a hot rodded cartridge with better top to bottom sound, along with keeping that fantastic mid range intact. Under $1k, this is a fantastic MC cartridge to get. You can get the Denon 103r as well, but there is something about the regular 103 mids that is just awesome.

    These are heavy cartridges when modded, so make sure your arm can handle it.

    Now, one of my favorite cartridges in the $1k range is the Nagaoka MP500. Moving Magnet but one of that absolute best cartridges I've heard. I think it sells for about $550 or so.

    But as you move higher up in the cartridge ranges, you can't escape the nuances that a MC gives you. Every small groove inflection is translated better by MC carts. Can't beat physics of a small coil moving in a fixed magnet structure. So much less mass that the movements are instantaneous almost.
     
  7. Smitty

    Smitty Too good for bad vodka - Friend

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    @shaizada , what do you recomend for high-compliance carts?
     
  8. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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    Tell me the setup. I am assuming it is a lightweight tonearm from the 70s, 80s? It's better to get a recommendation based on the setup so u can get the best out of the cartridge. Also, let me know if u are planning to upgrade anything in the vinyl chain, so I can think about what cartridge would work well for you.

    Also, any sonic preferences I should be aware of?
     
  9. audiofrk

    audiofrk Guest

    How is the sumiko blackbird?
     
  10. Smitty

    Smitty Too good for bad vodka - Friend

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    The arm is a linear tracking arm, carbon fiber construction, basically a Chinese clone of a Magne tonearm. Tonal preference is not really a big deal. I have no upgrade plans in the immediate future, unless I win the powerball tonight. Preamp is an EC Transcription.
     
  11. MrTie

    MrTie Friend

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    @Smitty I had a Very light arm(Grace 707) on my last Thorens and I really enjoyed various vintage Shures(M series and V series) on it, the bodies go pretty cheap, and a Jico SAS stylus will run about $150 for most of them. I'd hazard a guess that the 2m line from ortofon would work pretty well on a light arm. High Compliance MC's however are pretty dang rare, investing in vintage grace, coral, or supex HOMC and spending the money on a quality retip might be the ticket if you've got some money to spend.
     
  12. Smitty

    Smitty Too good for bad vodka - Friend

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    I was considering finding a mid compliance cart and trying it with my arm to see if it would work out. The supex line has been something I've been considering,they tend to pop up for reasonable prices from time to time.
     
  13. Johnman1116

    Johnman1116 New

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    Few more questions regarding turntable setup...

    Typically people recommend a bubble level to make sure your table and platter are level but what if it's not level? I notice that most third party feet are non-adjustable. Any recommendations or do we just use coasters or something...

    Regarding platter speed and the strobe discs. Once you find out that your platter isn't running at the correct speed, what can be done without breaking the bank? Is this where a Speed Box comes in?
     
  14. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    Coasters work fine to level a table. You want the platter level, the rest doesn't matter. If it's not level you will get additional wow/flutter as stylus speed won't be constant. Effectively the same thing is a very mildly warped record except it's the platter that's "warped" and not the record. Worst case you get uneven stylus wear and tracking issues as well.

    Regarding speed control if your turntable is belt drive you can adjust the speed by:
    - moving the motor closer/away from the table
    - if the pulley is stepped you can move it up/down a step (VPI does this to provide 33/45 with some adjustment)

    From there you can go to speed controllers. The most popular (and universally well reviewed) aftermarket speed controller these days seems to be the Phoenix Engineering one which use a hall effect sensor and hooked up to a microcontroller to nail the speed down within 0.001 rpm.

    http://www.phoenix-engr.com/

    The Pheonix is so good (much better then the VPI SDS which is just a simple voltage generator) that I think Harry Weisfeld offered the guy a business deal. When he refused is caused a bit of friction.
     
  15. BioniclePhile

    BioniclePhile The Terminal Man - Friend

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    Well, dad gets to keep the Technics turntable and the Mani. I mean, I guess it was a krismas present..

    I'll be on the lookout for a future vinyl rig, hopefully not costing any more than $500.
     
  16. Dr. Higgs

    Dr. Higgs Boson - Member

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    Does anyone have any good tips for getting the azimuth set correctly? Not having any issues, but I wasn't sure if there was a more precise way to do it other than balancing an aluminum stick on my tonearm.

    I'm thinking about picking up a calibration LP (probably the Ultimate Analog Test LP) and using the Dr. Feickert PlatterSpeed app to get the speed locked in with my SDS. Does anyone have any experience/guidance with any other good calibration tools?
     
  17. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    I ordered one of these for $5 to try out
    s-l1600.jpg

    I'm sure one of our resident Turntable/Vinyl experts will chime in soon with some sage advice.
     
  18. Chris F

    Chris F Boyz 4 Now Fanatic - Friend

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    To fine tune Azimuth I use the AP test LP.
    http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/3...imate_Analogue_Test_LP-Turntable_Set_Up_Tools

    Once you have your "by eye" adjustment done with the VPI balancing rod or whatever your turntable uses:

    a) Record tracks 2/3 on side A. (1Khz reference level individual left/right)
    b) Take the RMS measurements for these tracks. I use iZotope but most audio editors should have a feature to measure the RMS of a selection.
    c) Adjust Azimuth so that the crosstalk figure (the RMS value of the opposite channel) is as close to identical as you can get it.

    Usually I can get it good to within 0.2dB or so within a few tries.
     
  19. shaizada

    shaizada Friend

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    The method that Chris F just posted is excellent actually...I've tend to do it differently, though the electrical method would be even more "correct" (i.e. Fozgometer etc.)

    Here is what I do:

    1) First, make sure the platter is perfectly level. Using the small bubble is fine, but accuracy with those isn't always great. Go to the local hardware store and pick up a professional foot long level. Place it evenly across the platter right next to the spindle. The accuracy is much more spot on. Place it left to right and level the table. Then WITHOUT touching the level, turn the platter so the level is facing front to back. Level the table to get perfect side to side and front to back leveling :)

    2) Make sure your cartridge is aligned and the VTF is dialed in etc.

    3) Take a Silver CD (yes, digital is actually good for SOMETHING!!! hehe ) and place it on the platter. Lower the cartridge onto the CD. You want to make sure the stylus and the REFLECTION of the stylus on the CD surface forms a perfect vertical line. If not, adjust azimuth to make sure it does.

    4) Finally, recheck the tracking force again to make sure it is in check and play your record

    5) OPTIONALLY: play a mono record in "STEREO" mode. The image should be centered right in the middle of your speakers/headphones. SPEAKERS are much better for this! :) You actually can "see" an image to make this determination more easily ;)

    The method above works very well for me...but there are many other ways of doing it. I just like mine as I get consistently perfect results...

    Post here if you run in to any trouble and I'll try to help you along. Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2016
  20. Griffon

    Griffon 2nd biggest asshole on SBAF

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    Ah damn, been tempted to step into the TT world...

    I probably will only need a super introductory TT for a long, long time, as most of my listening has been my portable step up. Among the AT LP120, Rega 1, and ProJect Debut Carbon, which one would be a better choice? Or do you lords have any other suggestions? Thanks!
     

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