Yggdrasil A2 Measurements - Deconstructing ASR / Amir's Hack Job

Discussion in 'Source Measurements' started by purr1n, Jun 7, 2018.

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  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I would actually love it if people bought or sold gear based on Amir's measurements. Some people already did and realized the Topping DACs sounded like varying kinds of shit. It's best for people to learn themselves.

    I do tell people that if a limited set of measurements beyond human audibility thresholds are most important to them, then by all means avoid multibit DACs.

    I encourage everyone to try both or a combination of ways (measurements and listening) to evaluate gear, and then decide for themselves what works for them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  2. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I've kinda changed my mind on ignoring Amir when ASR ends up as the top link in my Google searches. People are obviously using his site to inform their decisions and especially newcomers are not aware he is a charlatan and will likely be misled.

    Also changed my mind on thinking he's NWAVGuy after the Jotunheim/grounding stuff. Those errors are so basic that I really doubt it's the same guy now.
     
  3. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    He is not NwAvGuy. Amir is incompetent. He is also a hard worker. Hard working incompetents are a menace.

    But he is just another data point in the interwebz.
     
  4. bobsherman

    bobsherman Acquaintance

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    I did some reasearch and have the 411 as to how the amirs dac attack started.

    It was cold rainy night and durrig a stressful one minute encounter his spouse exclaimed:

    "your shit dick doesn't measure up"!

    Due to his diminshed hearing, he thought she said Schiit DAC.

    The rest is history.
     
  5. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    You measurement-types are having way too much fun* with all this.

    It's making me want to join in, even if only for the "nuisance value"** of it ... sufficiently so that I'm in the process of evaluating which analyzer to go with (a decision complicated by my desire not to use Windows whenever I can avoid it ... even if I'm likely to have to at least run it in a VM for some things).

    Part of me wants to go with an APx555 just so a certain party can't argue with the pedigree of the tools in use. Though to be honest, a lot of that desire has more to do with being able post a picture of it on top of a pile of stuff that said party would love to test*** (and would no doubt cause more whining about why no one local wants to loan him gear/get together with him) ... but is, instead, stuck measuring low-rent no-name Chinese randomness from Amazon, and whatever mishmash of out-of-date-hasn't-been-sold-in-years-but-must-be-made-a-fuss-over gear his various "Mateys"**** are willing to send him.

    But a) I'm only really doing this for a bit of fun, so that would be insane - and I don't need to buy one to take that picture, b) I'd probably duff it up as my measurement regimen is not audio-centric (though randomly connecting it to things and then face-rolling the controls might result in more consistent measurements than said certain party), and c) it'd likely wind up on semi-permanent loan to @atomicbob anyway.

    So something more reasonable is in order ... maybe an AverLab, since that helps keep Windows out of it - though probably just using an existing DSO/MSO and/or the RME ADI-2 Pro fs.

    --
    *This is a strange, new, definition of the word "fun" that I was previously unaware of.
    **"Nuisance value" is why I still retain a single share of MSFT.
    ***I should get every local Yggdrasil I can all in one spot, stack 'em up, and post a picture of that on a certain site.
    ****"Matey" is a brand of bubble bath in the UK - in this application most commonly used as a loose colloquial reference to being a total wanker.
     
  6. dmckean44

    dmckean44 In a Sherwood S6040CP relationship

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    You should definitely get @atomicbob an APx555.
     
  7. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @Torq, I wouldn't buy an Audio Analyzer because of hard working incompetents like Amir.

    I may buy it if I was going to develop something serious though (which I'm currently not doing). And even then, there may be better alternatives in terms of performance. I know @tomchr uses an APx525 + a high quality external 1 kHz oscillator. I know NwAvGuy and @atomicbob use a dScope.

    And I know Amir uses an APx555. Sucks to be AP.

    Also the RME ADI-2 Pro fs is the sex. But it's not the cheap kind either. One would also need a little bit of infrastructure around it.

    EDIT: I know capable folks do use and have APx555s. But Amir is the poster child of what happens when you put a monkey behind a machine gun. I think he actually complained to AP about having something like an "easy" button for everything on the APx555.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  8. soekris

    soekris MOT - Soekris Engineering

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    There comes a time when you need the right tool, and if money is no object then the APx555 is the one to get....

    But I don't have that kind of funds (yet), so for now a Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 with ARTA software do the job, and that pretty good too, having tested plenty of USB audio interfaces.... Although the AverLab looks like a best buy.
     
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  9. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The Scarlett's are very reasonable for balanced measurements. I just bought this to monkey around with unbalanced measurements:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Balanced-X...lanced-preamp-preamplifier-board/271947481068

    I know some DIYAudio dudes were playing around with stuff like this. May add two IRM-10-15 for power supply. We'll see.

    Yeah. I can design that shit, but not for that kind of money including connectors and all. On a quick glance I also like the design for what it is. Most pro balanced to unbalanced stuffs I've seen may not cut the mustard.

    I've measured the loopback THD+N of the gen 1 2i2. It's not bad at all. I get close to the 2i2 spec (0.0032% or -90 dB THD+N where I think the generator holds it a little back). The CODEC is supposed to do about -100 dB though. THD wise I get about -104 dB if I remember correctly. The QA401 is claimed to do about -112 to -116 on a sunny day in THD. But THD+N, it is also about -90 dB. That tells you what I mean by "not bad at all".
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  10. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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    Honestly don't know if I'd be impressed or worried about someone who states they got their BSEE w/CS in only 2 years.

    Given the conversations here, I'd take the latter category.
     
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Wait, what?! He got this BSEE w/CS in 2 years? Where?
     
  12. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

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  13. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Nah, I wouldn't either - I was largely just trying to be funny (and apparently failing!).

    At most all that nonsense is just a catalyst for something I've been thinking about for a while - for various reasons. Only one of which has anything resembling an analog component - the rest is pure digital, which I'm well covered for already.

    It'd be massive overkill for me. My interest in a dedicated audio analyzer is just to add an extra dimension to a whole slew of pending review posts (lots of interesting stuff I've had around, auditioned, written up, and just not had the motivation to post about yet ... too much "life" going on ...). As such, even an AverLab would be significant overkill ... but might be worth it in terms of time savings for the number of units I want to apply it to (not just DACs) ... and for avoiding Windows.

    I already have one, for other reasons, so this is an easy one to apply. Originally I bought the AE version (black finish, transparent top, internal illumination etc.) but someone made me an offer to trade it for the updated "Pro fs" version, with enough cash on top to also buy an ADI-2 DAC, which was an easy decision.

    Oddly enough, I have a 2nd Gen 2i2 ... which I picked up to compare to the Arturia AudioFuse for entirely non-measurements related purposes. The Focusrite device is a lot more reliable than the Arturia ... and as far as I can tell their relative performance (noise floor, etc.) is close to identical in practice. And the 2i2 doesn't have to be disconnected and reset every third computer sleep event unlike the Arturia.

    Can't argue with the AudioFuse' feature set or connectivity, but at least for the initial batch they're not the most cooperative devices in the world.

    --

    At a minimum I'll probably go pick up an QA401 to try out, since QuantAsylum are local to me. Yeah, it means running Windows somewhere, but I think it's worth looking at.
     
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  14. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    The QA401 is really good in specs, and from what I've seen, in functionality. I've been close to pull the trigger a few times. Held back because I want to monkey around with my 2i2, and because there are a lot of good options and still figuring out what all of them have to offer.

    Focusrite offers the Clariett family which edge the Scarletts in specs. It now comes in USB flavor. It's a bit more pricey though and one may fall back and consider the QA401 for a measurements perspective.

    BTW, note that while AverLABs has better specs than the QA401, the QA401 has 20dB or so attenuators. That is not a small thing. Neither is the partial ASIO support.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  15. Torq

    Torq MOT: Headphone.com

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    Yeah, I looked at the Clarett a while back when it was a Thunderbolt thing (which works for me, since I'm Mac-centric). If I stuck with the audio-interface approach for measurements, I could see switching. For other stuff, I wound up putting Red/Red Net stuff in the studio instead.
     
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  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...hiit-yggdrasil-v2-dac.3607/page-29#post-91482

    Frans, in case you are referring to me as Luis, I'm actually Gilberto. If not, then I guess I'm in the shit list. I do have a lot of respect for you regardless.

    I think every one is free to provide subjective opinions. If one aligns oneself with them or not, it's a personal matter.

    More than once I have felt like I have not given Amir a fair shot, and dragged him through the mud too much. Just when that happens, a new Amir-thing comes up. Lately, Dynamic Range.

    I'm not butt-buddies with Mike and Jason. I do however respect their efforts, like to see them around, and wish them success in their efforts. In terms of products, I tend to like super affordable stuff. As in Monoprice affordable or cheaper. But I do look up to RME, Prism, and others. The ADI-2 Pro does a heck of a lot very well for the price. Though the price is a bit highish for plebs like me.

    Amir does not like things that do not meet his metrics and measurement results. Regardless of the validity of the results. Some may be valid. Some maybe be not. As you and Schiit said, some things will not measure great. But that does not mean they sound bad and deserve to be in the shit list. That is the center of contention.

    Well. That and the fact that if one is going to be critical about a product (or worse a person), one better make sure one did not screw up the measurements. And explicitly let people know to take things with a grain of salt in case one does screw things up.

    Anyhow. I still have a lot of respect for you and your work.

    Maybe Amir will get his measurement kung-fu together. But so far, there is still some road to cover IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
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  17. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Going forward, let's not bother with any content posted on ASR here unless it's measurements to confirm Amir's results.

    I don't care about what other people do really. And I've said before, making purchasing decisions based on measurements is a totally acceptable method, just as basing those decisions on listening (one time, several sessions, under different moods).

    No one disputes that multibit DACs will measure worse than DS DACs. However borked measurements should be challenged.

    @ultrabike: don't take anything too personally from Fran's. He's an objectivist at heart with a clear distain for subjectivity. I'd prefer any communication to be directly with him because I would rather avoid another "Rabbit" incident.

    All of this is just a waste of time.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2018
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