How much $ is required for a good turntable?

Discussion in 'Vinyl Nutjob World: Turntable and Related Gear' started by Prydz, Oct 6, 2016.

  1. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    Hello!

    On Norwegian television they recently had a test with budget turntables. When I say budget I mean from 200-650$.
    Funny thing was... They invited a band who release vinyl albums to blind test the cheapest and most expensive turntable on a 80k stereosystem. So what was the result? They could clearly hear a difference.

    As a guy who's always wanted turntables, but always been talked away from it from dudes who say "a 1k turntable wont sound any better then a cheap DAC", how much money is required to get a good turntable setup?
    And how easy would it be to hear the difference between a 1k turntable vs a 5k?

    Thank you
     
  2. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Ignore price tags and look at the components that matter. You want a stable turntable with a reliable and smooth engine (belt-drive is easy to maintain) and a solid platter that gives your vinyl a good base to rest on so the needle does not scratch it.

    Some old DJ-turntables are good options as you can modify them easily with the right knowledge. Go for something with parts that are easy to find and are affordable.

    "They could clearly hear a difference." Does that matter? It is your ears going to your brains. You can have an affordable turntable, great pre-amplifier and good enough speakers (monitors especially) and still get great results for less than 1000 Dollars (know your vintage audio gear!).

    When you have experience with turntable set-ups of course you will hear differences. Just do not assume you have to spend a lot a priori...
     
  3. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    Well it matters when they could so easly detect it! :D

    But if I just want a good turntable that doesnt require mods or much fiddling, what is recommended then? Would some 650$ Audio Technica's cut it vs a DAC?
    Ive only heard really expensive turntables irl...
     
  4. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Pioneer SL1200 for about 400 Dollars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Technics-SL...949497?hash=item1a1d31c079:g:wUMAAOSwmfhX5OFt

    Sansui Integrated amplifier for about 100 Dollars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sansui-AU-5...266718?hash=item3ace3de7de:g:lesAAOSwARZXneD5

    KRK Passive Monitors for about 115 Dollars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/KRK-ST6-stu...906142?hash=item46563330de:g:158AAOSw8gVX40aQ

    Took me less than five minutes. The Pioneer turntable and good Sansui amplifier alone are great. Audition the monitors, check some reviews and consider the options.
     
  5. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    Thank you sir!
    I'll defently check it out
     
  6. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Ask the turntable experts present what they think is best. I am merely a novice who happens to know that there is vintage pro-audio gear being dumped because many stupid consumers think "newer" equals "better." When you know what to look for you can get far for little money. Just do your research...
     
  7. Prydz

    Prydz Friend

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    I'm completly clueless when it comes to stereo tbh. Not that I got much more knowledge in head-fi... lol...
    My uncle is very serious hifier with a stereo that costs lots of K's, but he doesnt know shit about cheaper turntables...
    Rega RP3 is suppose to be pretty god for its price tho, so its Technics SL1200 used.

    I got some Snell J3 speakers btw, vintage ftw.
    Althought I do not have an amp to drive them with yet.
     
  8. Deep Funk

    Deep Funk Deep thoughts - Friend

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    Clean the speakers, borrow an integrated amplifier with enough power and plug in a source. Even a discman will do and check it out.

    This Sansui AU217 is well priced and apparently tested (contact the seller): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sansui-AU-2...361895?hash=item2821b770a7:g:PsAAAOSwPCVX9HpE

    Even if you do not go vinyl it is still a good amplifier to have for other clean sources feeding the speakers: win-win.
     
  9. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    Get ready for some vagueness: the world of turntables is so diverse, with so many different engineering philosophies (that span many more years compared to DACs), that it's often hard to generalize in my experience. It really depends on the turntable and DAC in question, in other words. Some $1k tables will obviously sound better than others. Just like some $1k DACs will sound worse than significantly cheaper sources.

    In the $1k range, I think a good turntable may or may not sound "better" than a good, similarly priced DAC. More like "different." Depending on your sonic priorities however... different might just be better. I think the attraction of turntables at this price point and below would be tonality; compared to some DACs which suffer from harsh, overtly digital sound, a turntable can offer a more lifelike picture. Will a $1k turntable beat out a $1k DAC in pure information retrieval? Probably not. Also consider that the source *material* is even more important. Often times, for whatever reason, better quality masters can be found on vinyl which makes a BIG difference.

    Now for some potentially bad news: more than almost any other component, I think the differences between less expensive and more expensive turntables can be heard. Again, this is a generalization: plenty of $5k turntables out there don't sound significantly better than less expensive ones. Some might even sound worse. BUT... a good $5k turntable is going to sound noticeably better than a good $1k turntable, and in turn even better than a good $500 turntable in my experience.

    As for why this is so: turntables are very kinetic contraptions which rely more on Newtonian physics. They perform tasks in a big, overt sort of way; you can see them moving and know what's going on physics-wise. At the same time, those tasks are extremely delicate and require very tight tolerances (consider how thin those grooves in a record are). It's like trying to knit while wearing a pair of boxing gloves. A lot of engineering has to go into seemingly simple tasks, and improvements in materials and design go a long, long way to improving turntable performance,

    Which is not to say a $1k or even a $500 turntable won't sound great. It's just that in my experience, the ceiling---how high you can go to improve sound quality---is a lot higher in the world of spinning platters compared to most other types of audio equipment. So yes, you will likely hear a difference between a $500, $1k, $5k, and $10k turntable. The law of diminishing returns does kick in, but it's comparatively higher than with DACs in my opinion.

    Also note that when I say "turntable," I'm talking about a whole package. The tonearm and cartridge are almost as important as the table itself, so you might consider spending a bit less on the table if it means you can get a better arm and cart.

    Hopefully this doesn't deter you! Playing records is a holistic experience, and many turntable owners find joy in that: having large gatefold jackets, removing records from sleeves, queueing up the music. It's a far cry from the convenience of computer audio and portable devices, but that's kind of the point for many.

    Personally speaking, I transitioned from a $5k DAC to a similarly priced turntable setup and never looked back. There was no doubt in my mind which I preferred. Eventually I moved up to something twice the price, and even now I'm thinking about models which are double that. But that's extreme, and I probably have some form of mental illness. Marv for instance uses a VPI Classic with several modifications, and I know he prefers it to most sources he's had before.

    But yeah, to be slightly less vague, I think you'd be able to get a really impressive sounding table (versus similarly priced DACs) for $2k-$5k.

    JA Michell decks, Clearaudio, Kuzma Stabi S, the VPI Classic....

    I'd stay away from Rega unless it's their flagship model in a package deal (with matched arm and cart). Vintage decks are good, but in most instances they're not going to give you better performance compared to most contemporary DACs unless you bring them up to spec with a new plinth, arm, etc.
     
  10. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    about tree fiddy
     
  11. Mr.Sneis

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    I recommend you dont exactly look at a turntable like 1 component as you would a dac or cdp. It's more like an ecosystem.
     
  12. bumrush101

    bumrush101 Acquaintance

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    One way (and not the only one) is to see what $ used ones go (Ebay, HFS, Audiogon etc) for an how frequently they are being sold or not. You'll notice some that consistently sell for the same price or have good reviews over the years/decades, and some that jump up and down according to fad. This takes a bit of time, and you will have to evaluate what you end up finding according a larger time frame see what qualities stay true. Is someone selling for financial reasons? Is there some new hype that mitigates the appreciation of the previous model? Is there some obscure and long forgotten thing that people have overlooked? This one is good: Find something that is "almost" as good as the TOTL that everyone is going nuts about, and grab that for way less. The top 5-10% in any field/hobby are going to be pretty great regardless, and then it comes down to personal preferences basically.

    Just read a lot, ask questions too; you'll find that most people are more than happy give you some feedback on their experiences on forums like these. Know enough in the lexicon to be able to communicate your wants thoroughly. Asking vague questions will net you vague answers most of the time. Research will save you a lot of time, and funds in the end, than you can imagine. This hobby is not always easy on the wallet if you let it, and cumbersome to "try" out because of the physicality. And just go actually listen to the ones you can find in your area, you'll pretty much know when you hear it. Don't just go for high priced stuff. I liken it to reading "Classics" in school. The don't really help in appreciating what they are until you have read some really bad writing before...

    Oh, and BUY LOTS OF GOOD QUALITY RECORDS! Otherwise it's like putting the cart before the horse...
     
  13. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    I got out of playing records about 20 years ago due to moving cross country, wife, young kids, etc. But prior to that I owned a very basic turntable that I thoroughly enjoyed:
    ~$300 Rotel turntable (supposedly a rebadged entry level Rega, replaced a $250 Denon that sounded like crap)
    ~$300 Ortofon MC cartridge
    ~$300 Rotel Phono stage (sounded better than the one built into my Bryston preamp)
    ...and probably another $150 in tools to align cartridge, set weight/tracking, etc.
    (note those were 1995 retail prices)

    I also owned a Pioneer Elite PD-65 CD player that was around $800. I nearly stopped playing CDs because I just didn't enjoy it as much. Also that was at a time when mint used vinyl was going for $1-$4 for most stuff. So I was buying new music like crazy. But basically between comparably priced TT and CD player, the TT won out for me.

    But what probably was the most mandatory part of the vinyl rig was the VPI record cleaner I owned. I had the basic model which I think now goes for around $700. That thing brought a lot of grungy records back to life and even made clean records cleaner. So I would recommend getting something similar, even if its just a cheap vacuum system.

    If I had to buy it all over again today I'd probably just get the basic Rega with a decent cartridge, and maybe the Schiit Mani phono stage. And of course a record cleaner.
     
  14. landroni

    landroni Friend

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    I have no experience with vinyl, but I'm looking at an entry-level turntable under similar constraints, and after some research I'm eyeing a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit (€450 in Europe or $600 in the US), which compared to an entry level Rega (whether RP1 or RP3), comes with some bells and whistles that are considered a mods or upgrades on the Regas (e.g. acrylic platter).

    As for the cartridge, I'm eyeing the Denon DL-103R ($379) or the DL-110 ($299) Moving Coil cartridges, with a preference for the latter. The DL-110 is High Output (and thus compatible with MM inputs), which means that it requires a less aggressive phono gain stage which may unduly color the signal.
     
  15. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    For those in the US or Canada (or who don't mind using an import service or friend), I'd highly recommend looking at U-Turn Audio as a simple, cost effective entry point:

    http://uturnaudio.com/

    The Orbit turntable is an obscenely good value proposition at under $200 bucks, and you can upgrade that with a (somewhat) better acrylic platter and cork mat. They offer a decent selection of entry level cartridges which they'll install for you. The tonearm has a counter weight and optional cue lever, and it looks pretty solid without any bling-y gimmicks. The motor is decoupled from the plinth with a suspension system, meaning less transference of unwanted vibration. It also uses an AC motor which, in my experience, tends to mean better speed stability on lower cost turntables (easier to implement).

    Don't let the prices fool you: these are solidly engineered tables. You're just cutting out the dealer overhead and brandname markup. Also they look easy to maintain, and I've heard no complaints so far from the folks I know who own them.

    Personally I'd go this route, and from there look into saving up for a Clearaudio Concept, Kuzma Stabi S, or JA Michell Dec. Or maybe if you're feeling more adventurous, something from Funk Firm or Well Tempered.

    Or a used VPI Classic (RIP).

    The Pro-Ject tables I've heard are OK for the asking price.
    Stay away from Rega's lower end models.
     
  16. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    I highly advise against trying to import a uturn table unless you have 60Hz power or a power supply that can generate 24 VAC 60Hz. The motor will turn slower otherwise.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    U-turn or used VPI Classic. Don't bother with anything in between, unless you find a vintage DD in good working order at a great price (which is very unlikely these days).

    The Pro-Ject stuff is too expensive now for what you get, which isn't much more than a U-turn.

    Oh wait, you are screwed in Europe with the 50Hz mains. Get the Pro-Ject.
     
  18. jelt2359

    jelt2359 Friend

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    Is it just me, or does that sound like a crazy amount of work??
     
  19. MuppetFace

    MuppetFace Sultana of Seafoam Green - Moderator

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    It's not difficult to source a frequency converter for those living abroad. U-Turn even provides a link to one in their FAQ. Even factoring in the extra cost of conversion plus shipping, it's still a better value proposition than most entry level stuff.

    Personally speaking, I think there are other good alternatives in between the cost of a fully upgraded VPI Classic (which is indeed a great table) and the $300 U-Turn. I lived with the Kuzma Stabi S for example, and with a good isolation platform, I think it really shines. Plus Kuzma gives you a lot of flexibility: you can add a second tonearm down the road if you want to listen to mono recordings, and few tables offer that at its price point.

    The JA Michell Decs are also really nice. Well Tempered Labs makes some weird-ass stuff, and admittedly I've got a soft spot for that (they actually sound quite good), but maintaining them is a legendary pain in the ass. That's another thing to consider for prospective newcomers: how easy is the table to setup? To maintain? Do you have to readjust it every month or can you "set it and forget it" for a year or so?

    If you're going to be spending the dosh though, definitely find a local distributor and listen for yourself! See if you can audition it in your home. A good dealer will even help you set it up, too.

    I'd personally advise against a vintage direct drive unless you have DIY skills and want a neat project to take on sometime. They just have way too much rumble without a plinth transplant.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  20. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Any recommendations on vintage DD turntables for those looking? I might have picked up a Sansui SR-838 for relatively cheap a while back (far, far less than the $1Kish going rate)...works perfectly, just has missing feet and cosmetic issues. I need you to validate my purchase!

    From what I've read, it's best to stay away from vintage gear that's either A) complex with a lot of features, i.e. more areas for failure and B) are hard to source replacements for.
     

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