Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Jan 17, 2018.
@Kattefjaes already made a logo in the t-shirt thread, go check it out, it's wonderful.
I still chuckle when I see the picture of the C.U.N.T. with F.U.J.U.D.E tech -that he posted himself- over at HeAd-Fi
There could be:
But in the end you'll probably need to out-lawyer/outspend him. He's said as much in the past, whenever someone threatens law suits, he insta-bans them from HF.
While he very obviously does ads without disclosure for his sponsors, he is also very careful about keeping 'plausible deniability' (e.g. "Hey look how cool and noble I am: I am trying to do a great service to the community and provide reliable objective measurements that no one else can. I have even my GRASS fully isolated so no one can sense it from the outside."). Not sure what, if anything, would stick with consumer agencies/courts.
(I have a friend working in high-end fashion, and if you thought high-end audio was bad, you'd be shocked what passes by 'normal' in other industries. There bloggers and "trend setters" get fully paid trips, accommodation and blowjobs -- or some tasty licking, depending -- as a matter of routine marketing campaigns. When I raised with them the potential of 'shilling', they weren't sure what I was talking about.)
You may enjoy this:
HAH! A friend shared this on his Facebook wall earlier today, and I'm still shocked that there are people who'd be so blasé and cavalier about asking for a five-day stay at as nice a place as that at no cost. All things considered, White Moose's response was rather tempered and well-considered, but they did kinda fuck up by letting her identity slip.
Eh, as a millennial, I just wanna say we're not all entitled little arsewipes. Forgot who it was, but I remember there's someone who "secretly hates other millennials" on here.
Hey, my partner is a millennial, I know they're not all bad
Flippancy aside, in some ways, it's probably harder than people realise to not be an old git these days. For all the irritating vocal fry and uptalk, they're a cohort who have to jam hard overall, offspring of curling parents aside.
Every generation thinks the next one is a bunch of pricks- it's traditional. Worry when it doesn't happen.
(Gotta admit, a short break in Dublin is appealing right now, though.)
That has been cleared up in the IE800S IEM thread, when once again a 10kHz spike that others measured (and some heard) didn't show up in Jude's graphs.
What's called JudeGate 1 (MDR-Z1R) and JudeGate 2 (IE800S) over here, has likely been caused by his simulator having anthropometric pinnae with "anatomically correct" ear canals, whereas the ear canals in pretty much all other simulators are cylindrical.
Personally, I haven't heard the MDR-Z1R, but clearly hear a 10kHz bump in the IE800S, probably because my ear canals are rather straight and wide. Which just goes to show that measurements (and models) based on averaged data may not always represent what you hear as an individual. Nevertheless, for the majority of people, anthropometric ear canals should provide more accurate results than cylindrical ones, which Tyll acknowleded in this post:
To be fair, he did post THD measurements, which didn't show much difference between HD800 and HD800S either.
This is an aspect that worries me too. I think he very well knows that unanimously higher THD results for the HD800S on other rigs are unlikely to be caused by higher ambient noise or simple "inferiority" of said rigs. Yet he keeps pressing this point.
Also, why point out strange 200 Hz and 2 kHz spikes in Tyll's THDs to thousands of his forum readers, instead of asking the man directly? To me, this smells of an agenda... all the more, since it isn't hard to find Tyll's explanation of this measurements on Innerfidelty. Which Jude obviously didn't even bother to read...
Bottom line, as much as I personally welcome Head-Fi finally providing measurements along with reviews, I wished that Jude would do it with a less competitive and more cooperative attitude.
I don't have context for this portion of the discussion, but UL does something like this when they measure electronics for emissions. They stick the unit inside an isolation chamber, and run wires/antennas for detecting emissions. But that's for FCC compliance. At least, this is how it was described to me when my DAC was tested.
However note his measurement resolution below 100 Hz (even below 200 Hz) is too coarse and is linearly interpolated. He needs to lower the sampling rate or increase the measurement time span to get more resolution in the bass and sub-bass regions.
Furthermore, he needs to perform a THD measurement with a 40 Hz tone and replicate results from other sites before arriving at conclusions about this or that measurement setup.
Jude pointing out the 200Hz and 2K spikes on Tyll's THD results reminded me of the sort of question or point I'd hear on Ancient Aliens.
Since I don't see Jude doing the required test replication that any engineer worth it's salt should do, besides the fact that Jude's plots are too coarse, consider the following:
Note that below 100 Hz, H2 dominates distortion. This can be seen in Jude's plots where both blots converge to the same values below 100 Hz.
We could therefore make the tentative assumption that THD approximates H2 below 100 Hz for HD800 and HD800S cans in particular.
@Tyll Hertsens site provides THD on his characterization plots. He has available at least on HD800 and three HD800S:
Focus on the THD% + noise plots. In all cases the HD800 shows less THD% + noise below 100 Hz than the HD800S. Again, based on Jude's plots, THD% + noise should be dominated by H2.
Futhermore, note that in all cases the HD800 cans produce more sub-bass than the HD800S cans in @Tyll Hertsens characterization sheets. SPL being equal, I would expect this to translate into more distortion below 100 Hz in @Tyll Hertsens results for the HD800S relative to the HD800 cans, assuming the same driver.
So WTF is going on?!
For one, note that in all of @Tyll Hertsens plots, 90 dB SPL results in > 1% distortion below 30 Hz for the HD800S. Jude's plots never go > 1% distortion for the HD800S cans he measured (Jude claims 90 dB SPL measurements). Maybe Jude's GRAS forces the HD800s to clamp harder on the coupler, artificially boosting low frequencies on the HD800S measurements. But not certain. If this is the case, the results are a byproduct of using different couplers. I would also expect @Tyll Hertsens results to be more representative of real life applications since he is using a head model.
The "DIY Measurement" rig thing... I didn't know that the MiniDSP EARS was DIY. Last time I checked, I'm quite sure I didn't go to the hardware store to construct the EARS.
BTW, HD800 (modded) vs HD800S distortion results are here with the EARS: http://www.superbestaudiofriends.or...-hd800s-distortion-analysis.5670/#post-186626 and here
This is exactly what I am talking about with Jude being like Mao or Rocketman. He frames his own narrative and keeps repeating lies until it becomes truth.
I think it comes down to him not really being able to admit he's wrong combined with a bizarre enthusiasm to try to prove everyone else wrong.
He clearly spent a lot of money on this rig, now it is abundantly clear almost solely with the hope of de-legitimising everybody else. He keeps making these mistakes, you guys keep correcting him, and it keeps undermining him.
If he actually admits to his mistakes and admits that money can't buy experience and other people have value, it would mean wasted money and doing the opposite of what he spent all this money for - to make it seem like others don't have value to provide.
The way he quotes people from this forum and can't really reference who exactly he is quoting is a seriously unintentionally hilarious window into the ways his ego, wallet, and machiavellian ambition have manifested itself into a twisted abomination.
In some ways, it is very symbolic of the ways head fi has evolved into a community with absolutely no soul. I appreciate Marvey's comment earlier, SBAF is built on friendship, head fi is built on something else entirely.
People can see through it. You can't fake being real.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is something like more clamp, causing a relative boost in SPL measured at mic without actually cranking the volume up any more. Could also be that the 90dB SPL reading is inaccurate, or at least doesn't match Tyll's 90dB SPL for one reason or another. I want to say Tyll said his head is on the more petite side of things, and maybe Jude's head is bigger.
If nothing else, Jude should show THD measurements at increasing SPL levels to see how it affects the HD800 and HD800S. While his 90dB might not be Tyll's 90dB, perhaps we could start to see a pattern when ignoring exact SPL.
Well, if someone doesn't contradict, it does "become" truth. I'm constantly refreshing minidsp page to see when ears become available again. It's also a great biaural recorder, too. Did you by any chance try recording anything with it? I considered buying it mostly as a binaural mic, and for a bit of headphone measuring. Not sure if it's worth the cash for my usage scenario
Somebody should send Jude a copy of the Dunning-Kruger paper.
But I'm getting the impression that it would not make any difference, because he would not and could not see how it applies to him. Which, for a guy who is apparently into being a financial success is a huge mistake. The lesson is... when incompetent, know it: if you can't do that job, stop screwing up and employ someone who can.
Damn it, I'm hugely incompetent at many many things. And I try to be realistic about it. And it really annoys me when people say I'm running myself down. No, I hate false modesty too: I'm trying to be straight with them and myself.
In those measurements the frequency response in the bass region on the HD800S seems even higher, while the distortion is also higher.
That means I don't know really WTF is going on with Jude's results. Maybe he used slightly different SPLs. Maybe his results are too noisy in the bass region. I dunno. But I do know that pretty much everyone gets the same results with DIY and non-DIY rigs, except Jude.
This might have been said already but...
I think one of the problems here is that for someone new to measurements, or with lack of technical experience doing measurements (like myself,) Judes posts make sense on the surface. You see this fancy pants set up with a bunch of words and graphs that you don't totally understand and nod along saying "yeah, I mean, this has to be right...right?" Combine this with all the pictures of less fancy and impressive measurement set ups, and it sort of drives that point home.
However, when you start to dig a little deeper, it all gets a lot less black and white, and more importantly, a lot more confusing. The fact that the only time Jude seems to bring up his measurements is when its a sponsors headphone, to combat the perception of a supposed negative attribute, is highly suspect. I would trust the measurements of someone who really knows what they are doing with a less fancy set up, than someone with a TOTL measurement set up with not as much experience.
I kind of understand measurements, but am 100% willing to admit that I am no expert, and I think (I could be wrong) that the vast majority of "audiophile" headphone users are similar to me. This means that for a lot of people, especially newer headphone enthusiasts that have found Head-Fi as a first stop, Jude and his measurements sound good and look good on the surface.
It brings me back to something I said a couple years ago when I compared my LCD-4 and Abyss, thoughts I think I posted here.
I’M NOT A PROFESSIONAL. I just like good headphones. As I said when I posted some impressions of headphones the other day, I don’t care about a valley at 7khz, and a peak at 10khz sort of thing. Its just not my bag. There is a place for it, and others are far better at it than I am, so these are just…..a dude who likes headphones and musics impressions. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, and if you can, give em’ a shot yourself. Your ears know better than my babbling.
I still feel this way. I don't fully understand measurements so I don't fully take them as gospel. I used to own the HD800S, and really enjoyed them. I just didn't care if there was more "2nd order harmonic distortion" or whatever it is causing more warmth in the bass. The sounded good to my ears, and that is all that mattered to me.
I'm getting off topic, but Jude and his measurement system look and sound important. Whether we like it or not, he is one of the main figures in headphonedom, and what he says holds weight in the community. It strikes me as sort of dangerous that he is able to tweak and twist measurements to fit whatever narrative he wants to achieve.
I guess what I'm going to take away from all this is that I need to improve my understanding of measurements and measurement systems to fully understand what is going on, cause right now? It all seems a bit fishy.
It’s easy to throw a ton of money at a problem. The thing is expertise comes with time and practice, which Jude isn’t willing to wait for. Another reason he lays it on thick with the technological superiority of his measuring system—he needs people to think that by merely having such technology, he is then equipped to actually use it correctly.
Yeah, the modded HD800 do have less bass. Still the D2 and D3 patterns seem consistent with other measurements taken before. This is for the IR derived measurements.
On the FFT / spectrum measurements, I volume matched the 39Hz signal.
I'm not making assertions of more or less. THD seems close enough - maybe too close to call. However, D2 and D3 characteristics are opposite. And HD800S and HD800 bass does sound slightly different to my ears.
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