Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Jan 17, 2018.
A residual noise measurement of the headphone measurement system, in it's environment during normal measurement hours, would be helpful for all to see where the noise bodies are buried. I don't want to see just the NC number but a 6th octave or higher resolution spectrum of the ambient residual. But I'm inclined to believe at least one individual would cherry pick the lowest found rather than a low, high and average of the measurement system residual acoustic noise. It is possible to acquire low noise acoustic measurements in less than ideal environments with a second, independent system tracking the ambient environment during measurements made by the primary system. Not too difficult, but requires thought, understanding, experience and patience.
Jude is an idiot.
If I were a manufacturer, I would never want to publish measurements for the exact reasons behind JudeGate 1, 2 and now 3. As we have seen, different gear, different methods, different people, different environment equates to different results. Looking at how someone like Jude competitively e-peens measurements with others who have vastly more experience than him, can we imagine what randos might do? This would be like opening a can of worms for manufacturers.
Manufacturer provided measurements, at least to consumers with half a brain, have gained a reputation of being fluff or marketing material. A good example of this is the super smoothed 1/2 octave block with tweaked axes of the HD800 frequency response certificates. There was a time when people like me were berated for being full of shit because the HD800 was "perfect" based on what Sennheiser provided.
Enthusiasts really do not give a shit about measurements. I care far less about measurements than most people probably think. This conclusion is born out of analytics on SBAF and the way the SBAF site is structured. Only a very small subset of active SBAF members cares about measurements. maybe 4%. Measurements are hard to grasp without a lot of experience with gear.
Measurements is not why SBAF has grabbed a significant number of old and potentially new members, quality members, from Head-Fi. Call me or my "lieutenants" what you want, but at least I am authentic and passionate about audio, not purely passionate about money.
Photochopped Jude clown pix and Jude drama get far more pageviews than all measurements pages combined. I am dead serious.
Maybe someone can post this stuff on the headphones reddit, and Jude will pop out and reply there like that one time.
I get the feeling the sudden surge of interest in measurements is, apart from HF's recent endeavours to use them to their own ends, stem from a desire to gain the most bang for buck, a similar sentiment to that which gave rise to NwAvGuy's brand of objectivism— cheapskates like me (hi @ultrabike XD) wanting reason to justify spending relatively large amounts of money on gear when we don't actually know all that much about measurements.
Hell, it took me ages to figure out FFTs and all that jazz, and how distortion worked for amplifiers etc. Chances are I've got months more casual reading before I can make effective use of all the data on here, but hell, I'm a dweeb who procrastinates on school stuff too much and so have the time for it. Most people are gonna learn less but think they know all they need to know, which really is crap for the hobby in general.
For what it's worth, some measurements are useful enough for the general populace even without gobs of experience. At the least, they help point newbs in the right general direction, as far as their preferences go.
Yes the HD800 measurements are kinda a waste of paper or data. Still, they're pretty to look at, at least.
But in all seriousness, I like his vids and the way he talks. It's a diarrhea of misinformation, but smells like Lillies. He's a good speaker and writer. That makes him "dangerous" (or entertaining)
I keep thinking about the "sound science" section on head fi and what this means for them. Probably nothing.
Nwavguy... I'd really really like to hear his thoughts on Jude's latest endevours. That'd be hillarious
Great bragging stuff to present to the uninformed. Worked on me while I was a bit less stupid than now.
Edit: I meant a bit more stupid, but apparently the original statement holds better...
You seriously saying that hearing is not perception? As in auditory perception, which you "couldn't possibly objectively measure" as per the above? Or just being deluded/confusing about it.
Anyways, since you're being so high-handed, I'll hack at it systematically, if briefly*. I'll put this in a spoiler for those not interested.
Spoiler: Move along...
So... "if you can't measure it, you can't hear it." ... how does that work out in an inter-temporal setting? You seem to be treating 'Science' as an open book that is always correct, which would preclude any notion of scientific advancement. Ever. Which also logically precludes the development of new 'measurements' to quantify known human perceptions which can't yet be measured.
So, you are saying that that if we can't measure something today, I can't possibly hear it. What about if we can measure that very same something 10 years from now, would that all of a sudden make it that I could hear it then? But not now? So then in 10 years I would be hearing something we can quantify and measure, but today I'm imagining those things?
And what about jitter? Are you saying that people in the '70s couldn't hear jitter because we didn't know it existed, so we couldn't measure it then. But all of a sudden those same people can hear jitter today, because we can measure it now...
But let's get out of audio for a second. Are you telling me that prehistoric cavemen couldn't feel temperature, because there were no thermometers around to measure that? Or atmospheric pressure, because there were no barometers? You seem particularly attached to your worldview, so I don't expect you to see the logical inconsistencies in your thinking.
* As briefly as I could.
** I will allow that there is potential for misunderstanding, or perhaps that your original statement needed to be qualified to make sense. But you're being a dick about it, so no benefit of doubt from here.
I’d go with insecurity as the main motivating factor of any new interest. Given the difficulty of critical listening and lack of awareness in how your brain bias’ what you hear, combined with the diversity of subjective opinions; Measurements will be seen as proof of what is good, or isn’t, and used as a stick to beat others with. It’s a comfort, which is unfortunate as they’re still rather limited vs what we hear.
Regardless of what one may think of Nwavguy, or whether this area is his forté, his voice holds sway. If he ever considered popping his head up again he could probably do some good right now by publicly calling out this new trend of bullshit, in addition to the efforts of others, before it really does become a trend.
I was not being a dick about anything, if I remember correctly.
If anyone feels offended, I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to offend.
If someone wants to speak abou the subject with me, pm. I'm obviously totally unable to convey what I want to say. I'm not even bailing out.
After all of my text, someone comes and says I said hearing is not perception.
Just... how? Lol
Doesn't matter. Only pm. Keep this thread clean of that, please.
Clean up on isle 30.
I think I need to make a correction to my above post: upon further investigation, the 10kHz measurement discrepancies for the MDR-Z1R and IE800S (aka JudeGate 1 and 2) don't seem due to the anthropometric pinnae with anatomically correct ear canals on Jude's rig. I pretty much took Tyll's acknowledement at face value and was too lazy to read through the G.R.A.S. whitepaper... but it's in fact all in there:
So, apparently the anthropometric ear canal and pinna don't have any effect on 10kHz peaks (actually, the new HRTF is even a bit higher there)
However, G.R.A.S. also built a filter into their low noise simulator, to counteract a resonance around 13.5 kHz and improve stability of measurements >10kHz. Personally, I think it's very likely that this filter is the true reason why we've been seeing lower 10kHz peaks in Jude's measurements as compared to other rigs.
Probably, but like you (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sen...ost-for-summary.795365/page-203#post-13988365), I don't think these differences in Jude's coupler and equalization a year ago account for his current claims on H2 distortion below 200 Hz as noted by TenMoonsNorth:
In a nutshell, TenMoonsNorth noted that Jude measured HD800 THD in his comparison with the Utopia before. He measured way lower distortion on the HD800 than he currently is in his latest JudeGate post particularly in the bass region.
He offers a link to Jude's previous measurements, which is provided for convenience here:
Personally, I'm much more convinced that something is wrong with Jude's current measurements.
Here I was thinking the HeAd-Fi community tend to believe those with more experience on a topic over complete newbies. As far as I can see Jude went from not knowing a thing about measurements to buying an expensive rig and being a self-proclaimed professor on the subject overnight. I'm going to go invest in some stocks now, by this time tomorrow just call me Warren Buffett.
The self-proclaimed next Warren Buffet. Yup. That thing also happens very often.
I´d say it´s mostly the high signal to noise ratio and the active encouragement of being critical in an analytic way* (nothing is perfect). You guys can be a bit harsh sometimes towards new people here though The measurements are nice, but they kind of fade into the background pretty fast once you stay here for some time. They are probably the first point of contact to this site for many (apart from InnerFidelity, DIY Audio Heaven and maybe a few others there aren´t that many places for headphone measurements out there) though and can be very enlightening for questions such as "does this have clean extended bass?". Not that many things in audio are objective, but it´s good to acknowledge that some things are. I love my HD 800 S, but it´s not a question of opinion if it rolls off in the sub bass (while being extremely extended in the treble) and as a consequence has a somewhat thin tone to it.
As someone who enjoys being on both, you just have to view things with different lenses. I´ve found that reading both is a nice combination. Very different approaches to everything, which is why I find it odd that Head-Fi is so active in deleting all references towards this site. If I ran Head-Fi I could care less about people linking to smaller enthusiast forums with a very different atmosphere/goals. They already won the mainstream and the sponsorship relations that come with it. The online headphone world isn´t large enough to support several mainstream hubs and likely never will be (and besides the smaller forums aren´t even targeting the same "market segment" anyway).
This whole measurement wars thing confuses me, I have no idea what to think to be honest. I´m not technically qualified enough to form a solid view on the matter, but I do find the whole situation weird. If Sennheiser wanted to use Jude to dispel a circulating notion regarding the HD 800 S, why not simply set up an interview with Axel Grell on the topic or send InnerFidelity an official comment (as soon as the review was published) on their review just like a lot of vendors do with Stereophile? Simply state something like: "Thank you for the review! We would however like to comment on the distortion measurements. While we cannot explain these results as published here, we can confirm that we have not deliberately added any sort of distortion in the HD 800 S in order to increase perceived bass response. This is also reflected in our own internal measurements." (assuming this is the case) and be done with it. That being said, I hope Jude´s recent interest in measurement gear eventually results in some kind of official Head-Fi measurement database (everything taken with the same methodology). That would be interesting and potentially lead to some very useful stuff as in comparisons within that data set. I doubt it will happen though, purely because it´s not in the best interest of some let´s say more esoteric headphone manufacturers (such as Grado; much better for them to go for the whole "just listen!" thing).
* Provide background, points of reference, subjective preferences, use more precise language to describe the noted differences etc. etc.
There's a slant on HF to hype up the upside and limit talk on the downside of stuff because of the advertising nature of their site. Normal practice. SBAF seems to swing the other way, but it probably isn't that extreme namely of the large imbalance of the huge upside/little downside posts on HF.
Wtf was the point of this video?
Just comes across as so contrived
This maybe JudeGate 3 here. But issues with Jude's propensity to put business interest first have a long history. Here is one of many JudeGates right at the inception of HF (@Tyll Hertsens smacked right in the middle of it):
This was a good read. More than anything else, the parlance used and sheer novelty of the Great Online Frontier-vibe you got off that thread was... interesting. Reminds me of my first internet forays back in pre-teenhood.
That post is tragic, in a sense. If this were a drama (and, well, it is), that'd be perfect foreshadowing almost.
I wonder how much of that guy remains there, really, how much of the genuine audio lover who purports to keep a place as "unbiased and objective" (?!) as possible.
Eh, it's not my place to raise conjecture. I was, what, playing with crayons in second grade and measuring my grip strength crushing newspaper sheets (yes, that was a thing) at the time? The link provides interesting insight to a then-nascent Head-Fi. Just wish it'd come out better.
Wow that post was actually somewhat sad to read.
I really hope that SBAF lives forever because honestly ad-Fi is like trying to sift through a Porta-potty to find lost jewelry, the risk is hardly worth the reward as the tank fills up more and more with shit, and then you realize you'll never find real jewels, only painted glass. They will never stop or discourage the noise-posts because it all contributes to page views, which in turn funds their measurement equipment, best used as an e-peen pump, to further seduce sponsors and ads which in turn rewards noise-post page views in a big ugly circle jerk of shillerey.
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