SBAF DAC Talk II

Discussion in 'Digital: DACs, USB converters, decrapifiers' started by Maxx134, Jul 22, 2018.

  1. Scott Kramer

    Scott Kramer Friend

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    Lol, reply to myself!
    upload_2018-11-9_0-37-30.png
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    22~ MHz MCLK output

    Interesting (after reading the dangerous dac clock options), and just for kicks, noticed my funky one-off DLIII also outputs the clock when switched back to internal stock. Gonna see if I can slave the Transport (pi) to the Dac (reverse), this is very raw, the linux driver dishes out PCM samples (16/24/32) timed to a GPIO pin (MCLK)-- may be applicable to the dangerous dacs, looks like they are doing a similar thing (or this is the standard thing). I'll experiment & see if there's a simple way to do this.

    PS yeah, don't do this at home... so dumb ;D

    PS2 (slim): NOT condoning these clock shenanigans ;D alas, here I am.

    Here's its butt (SMA for space instead of BNC) scope is on that sma center pin:
    Screen Shot 2018-11-09 at 1.37.53 AM.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  2. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Friend Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Burl’s gear is an open color box. I wouldn’t listen off if it unless you love that color or are recording and want to imprint that on the recording. If you love stuff like that, try it out. NOS turds are worse and people here love them.

    It’s like Schiit and Pass “stuff that sounds cool” philosophy taken to power level 9000 like AGD but pro audio memes (class a, discrete opamps, amazing clock, exciting transformers) instead of audiophile memes (discrete transistors, class a, krell, 3 x linear power supplies, etc). Of course it sounds different and is better than uh the Modi Multibit?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  3. Pharmaboy

    Pharmaboy Friend

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    This well-written/-reasoned post is evidence that the "more/best detail vs feel/musicality" debate never stops in audio.

    Rather than recite my preferences, an anecdote. The other night I heard Handel's Messiah performed live in a church. As happened often before, the experience was confounding, different from "audio": though live music contains a TON of detail (effortlessly/continuously), detail by itself is less striking & definitive (to me) than are tonality, instrumental timbre & physical impact of mid- to lower-frequency notes. This is even more evident when voices combine with instruments.

    So I gravitate to multibit, especially NOS, digital, because it seems to prioritize tonality & timbre--while also conveying some of the roundness & impact of low frequency notes. For me it's critical that those sonic qualities sound & seem real, rather than to obtain ultimate detail.

    Of course, not all multibit & NOS digital are alike. Designers/manufacturers "voice" these components just as they do speakers or headphones. I haven't heard Schitt's top DAC, but many comments about it focus on how much detail it conveys. Personally, I steer towards other mfr's units for which detail is not a primary objective...
     
  4. iFi audio

    iFi audio MOT iFi Audio

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    Fully agreed. They aren't.
     
  5. Darren G

    Darren G Friend

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    Not sure Yggdrasil A2 2, the TOP of the line is a detail monster, its more neutral, it disappears. It doesn't color the sound, a good thing.
     
  6. Maxx134

    Maxx134 Dunning–Kruger effect poster boy

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    Not too much debatable, as the only Dacs outperforming the Yggdrasil are top multibit Dacs using real resistors, (but also costing way more).

    Discreet resistors are getting better and better.

    Those two dacs are great but they not have as many resistors as top units.

    Sure the yggyA2 should be better as it using it's proprietary filter.
    Can I dream of a Yggdrasil not using the chips though? It probably would cost alot more in implementation to try and beat those chips with actuall resistors though.

    The main advantage of this unit is not having to wait for the majic to come after a week of burn in like the Yggdrasil.
    It is not suseptible to thermal issues or need to be run hot.
    That's probably due to not using thermally sensitive dac chip stability.

    The Yggdrasil special filter cannot compensate for the reliance on the chip thermal stability.
    So if it did away with the chips in favor of using real resistors, it would have what the other ladder Dacs have in the certainty of optimal sound from the outset.
    I am beating a dead horse here as the yggyA2, so far, beats anything close to it's price, so I will now shut up.
    :Violin:
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2018
  7. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

    Staff Member Friend MZR
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    I think it would be easier to argue that discrete R2R DACs don't have good enough resistor tolerance to have the true resolution of the chips used in Schiit's products. I'm not sold on different architectures, compensation methods, etc., and the filters are almost always underwhelming, textbook stuff. I find a lot of glowing reviews for discrete R2R DACs, especially those at stratospheric prices, to be highly suspect and almost guaranteed the usual audiophool bullshit.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Other approaches too. Can glue two less fussy chips together like UltraAnalog of the past. The Yggdrasil architecture is topped out. The chips are voltage out, so Schiit has to rely on the internal I to V inside the chip. They can't roll their own like on Theta Gen V in the past.

    Hearing the Crane Song with their custom filter, there is potential with delta-sigma designs. Imagine a good custom filter feeding the Analog Device DS chip used by the Convert-2 with the output fed into a good discrete IV and output stage.
     
  9. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    What chip is in the Solaris in the first place? Can't find any mention of it at all. Nor would we know what was in the Convert-2 without actually opening it up. Its kinda odd how these pro audio companies want to hide the details of their implementation so much.
     
  10. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Solaris is the latest AKM.
     
  11. Drakkard

    Drakkard Facebook Friend

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    Random question, hope it fits here. Are there non-diy dacs based on SM5865? Google does not help. I own a dac based on it for 5 years or so, and during that time never heard about any other implementation, so wondering.
     
  12. GoodEnoughGear

    GoodEnoughGear Evil Dr. Shultz‎

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    I get the impression from trawling Gearslutz et al. that the pro folks go far more by ear than by spec. Their motivation is far more practical.
     
  13. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    AKM 4490EQ
     
  14. svperstar

    svperstar Acquaintance

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    I've been on Modi Multibit for 2 years now. Decided to pick up the Grace Designs SDAC just for the hell of it. The Gilmore Lite mk2 has two inputs and a switch on it. I rigged up Winamp to output two both devices simultaneously so then I just flip the switch to go back and forth.

    The multibit just sounds less 3d and less detailed then the SDAC. Its a nice little product. In any an all genres of music.

    TBH the best DAC I think I have heard was the quad DAC setup on my old X-FI Elite Pro. Was 4 Cirrus Logic DAC chips and it was solid. Sadly I am laptop only these days so I can't keep using it.
     
  15. MikeW

    MikeW Shitbag

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    Pretty impressive the Sdac is > Modi multibit at 1/3 the cost. Grace has been doing this awhile though so it should be good.
     
  16. ColtMrFire

    ColtMrFire Writes better fan fics than you

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    Are you using the bare usb input on modi multibit or spdif? The USB input doesn't do that DAC any favors.
     
  17. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Going by pure resolution, one factor. Modi Multibit cannot resolve like any of the latest AKM based DACs. SDAC stages farther back, but everything is more diffuse and less precisely placed. Modi Multibit has better sense of front to back localization, but stage is closer.
     
  18. MikeW

    MikeW Shitbag

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    Yeah I get the sense that modi/bifrost are "relatively" low resolution compared to cheap DS. But often win out in tonality and other "musical" factors.

    It's really unfair of amir to compare Multibit to DS and emphasize DS strengths while railing on Multibit weakness. For example showing graph's where one dac my have noise at -140 DB and the multibit might have noise at 120 DB, when either one is beyond hearing and makes no difference whatsoever, and then exclaiming see! see! multibit is crap with low resolution!

    While completely ignoring the custom audio filter that Mike Moffat has built and tweaked with years and years of experience in this field, moffat's probably been doing digital audio longer then amir's been alive, that man already forgot more then amir will ever know about digital audio. It's ridiculous.

    I've been in this hobby for 15 years or so now, and I've seen/heard enough to understand that there is much more to audio then measurements. If it were all about measurements nobody would own Tubes, at all. It is possible to be relatively poor in one area and excel at another, more important area. And that "more important area" is oftentimes subjective upon it's user.

    Amir could take a much more respectful or balanced approach, yes, show the measurements, and then talk about why multibit has higher noise floor with higher distortion, and how it may or may not matter, talk about the custom made filter that's not possible on DS dac's. Don't be so dismissive of being made in America, with great support and warranty, don't dismiss mass appeal, resale value, etc. This is the problem with judging a component on a graph only.
    Not only that, but i've seen him make comments that are hyper critical of minor build quality niggles, when the truth is Schiit gear is really well made, nobody else is doing chassis work like schiit at these price ranges, it's always a generic prefab metal box. The way he writes about schiit gear is almost like he is biased against it and is out to tear it down anyway possible.


    I am hopeful schiit will be able to bring more resolution to it's lower end, and especially middle range products. Modi Multibit, Gungnir Multibit and Yggdrasil seem appropriate. It's Bifrost that is a bit out of place. Should be more Gungnir Multibit and less modi, considering price range. I say this as someone who literally just bought a used Bifrost, so the product still has appeal for it's form factor and USB Gen5, but I would not pay full price for it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  19. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Wait why would this digital filter not work on DS dac's?
     
  20. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Well from what I understand, a DS DAC will always give you an approximation of the original signal and the closed-form filter has to be with a multi-bit chip that preserves that data. Ultrabike has a big thread where he talks about it
     

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