Schiit Gungnir 2 Impressions + comparo

I get the chart exaggeration for effect, but the difference of opinion from headphones to speakers here is pretty big. Is that an important distinction - as in a lot of the differences matter way more on a good speaker chain, and are sort of wasted on headphones?

 

@purr1n, how are the dynamics on G2 compared to Yiggy A2?

The lack of SLAM and impact (regardless of bass quantity) was a big downside of MIB for me compared to OG A2.

 

Is the megacomboburrito whatever filter basically the same throughout the DAC’s compared? Or are there revisions?

Basically trying to suss out why the difference. Is it the way the new chips interact with the filter, is it the DSP? Is it the output stage?

 

MIB is 4x oversampling while other Schiit DACs run at 8x which is 384 / 352.8 KHz KHz.

Just a hypothesis that based on @purr1n radar chart that G2 runs at 8x due to having a slightly larger soundstage perception than MIB. Also, Using the unison 384 port with a 352.8 / 384KHz PCM feed pretty much bypasses the megacomboburrito filter regardless of whether G2 is in NOS mode or not. Not sure how much the different output stage between G2 and MIB also factors in with the soundstage aspect

 

To be clear I'm curious about how that distortion profile might affect the character of the sound, not implying that it's automatically bad or a fail. But you're right, at the level at it's at, it's unimportant.

 

It’s mostly Multiform, I think. Check out these quotes from the G2 Schiit Happened chapter:

 

I was wondering about that 8-channel thing. IIRC, one can run an ESS Sabre multichannel chip, with its 8 (or more?) channels, in stereo mode and it does something to reduce noise in that mode.

How different/similar to MultiForm? I'm sure it still suffers, regardless of any merits, from the "sheet engineer's" lack of skill in implementation.

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/sabre.pdf

The default configuration for Stereo mode, and the only configuration that can use the SPDIF input, is to wire four output channels in parallel. When Stereo mode is enabled in the configuration registers the same data is sent to all four channels. Effectively now the DACs become a pair of eight bit DACs having an output impedance of about 200Ω. This configuration allows >132dB of DNR to be typically reached17.

 

8 total channels for stereo balanced is the same as the current LIM or Bifrost 2/64. Multiform seems to be a revised arrangement of the same DACs, so the hope is that it supercedes and replaces those cards without much of a cost bump when it rolls out.

 

From my armchair digital engineering understanding (ie: pulling crap outta thin air), it runs 4 channels in parallel to form a single output for Left, and ditto for the right side. Each channel has a teensy bit of noise, but when you have multiples in parallel it essentially smoothes/averages/maaagics them all into a cleaner output.

 

Fun to listen to the comparisons in the video between Gung2 and the others. Although there are common concepts that we use for describing sound, speakers are tough because they're in a room, which people don't typically talk about, and the "presentation" is hard to really nail down. Bass as bottoms, for example...humorous, and ah, maybe fitting?

Bass in my system (Monitor Silver 500 floorstanders on Gaia feet, w/ REL S/510 sub, 14' ceiling) can present as fat and loose or lean and athletic and in between. And there's extension, how low? But then there's also PRaT and as Marv and Lesley (sp?) noted, the way it can jump out at you, or not. And does it engage you because you're hearing it AND feeling it enough to engage you? Dynamics are part of this, I feel the MiB is behind in dynamics compared to LiM, for example.

Too bad jazz and classical were not auditioned. The energy of the space between performers, the size and depth of a concert hall, the ability to make out voices in a choir, the position of the featured vocalists, the reverb of the recording, the realism of the natural/acoustic sounds, tonal colors in the instruments, intensity of vibrato and such...so many more ways a DAC can present via speakers (I don't mean headphones don't/can't) that are just rather hard to convey with language, and again the room variables of size, furniture, speaker placement, etc. So, it's almost more of a system synergy thing...but you can still hear the DAC's contribution when making comparisons w/ well known tracks.

And all the same, great to hear the impressions shared in that chat - thanks for that!

 

Would we be able to upgrade existing DACs to Multiform in the future?

 

Should be as far as I can tell, sure. They’ve already said Singular (the FPGA delta sigma solution) and Unison 384 are coming to Yggdrasil, so I can’t imagine Multiform won’t.

 

Looking a the AP report of the Gungnir 2 vs Yggdrasil LIM (balanced, -10dBFS) they seem very close except for the missing 2nd order harmonic on the Gungnir 2:


Even the MIB has 2nd order distortion from the balanced output, so this could explain (a little) why Gungnir 2 sounds so different from the others (not the technical abilities, mostly the perceived tonality).
Are the LIM and MIB singled ended internally?

Gungnir 2 has significantly lower noise floor than LIM (balanced, -60dBFS):



And its power supply is quiet enough to not pollute a -144dBFS signal! Now THAT's impressive!




BTW: those AP reports are really annoying to parse through. It is unnecessarily long. Every test should be able to fit on a single page so it's easy to skip through...

 

They want to keep the Multiform topology proprietary so we'll never know details but it seems to be an advancement on Mike's differential balanced R2R design. Head Fi quote from 2017:

"When evaluating digital systems, there exist a number of common mode high frequency trash that has everything to do with digital noise and spurious non-synchronous clocks all the way back up up the digital chain. Doing a "hard way" balance (doubling up on DACs and analog) is a way to deal with (largely cancel) these artifacts"

 

In that same quote, Mike said, "All Schiit DACs are hard way balanced. Many, probably most others are not."
So, Multiform, if "new" doesn't add that.

There's got to be something interesting there because just using multiple DACs and summing isn't going to eliminate the non-linearities inherent in the DAC itself, just chip-to-chip variances, right?

 

I got my G2 today it has been playing for 6 hours. I double down on everything Marv is saying in my system. Cleaner, clearer, beefer mids, bass is punchy very articulate, the top end is so clean. it is really engaging I cannot define why maybe all that Ive stated about it. It will only get better in the next few weeks.
For reference I had the LIM,then the Gungnir a2 mb which I loved, then the MIB which I thought in some ways was better then the gungnir a2, now the g2.

 

could this all be boiled down to a preference for 3rd order vs. 2nd order distortion? (I'm only halfway joking)

 

No. Eliminating variance is the randomized element selector technique that turns non-linearities into white noise, and is used by pretty much all the delta sigma makers already. I think the technical term is Dynamic Element Matching.

Hard way balanced R2R should phase cancel certain R2R non-linearities and common-mode noise. And that's what I'm getting at: if the Gungnir 2 measurements are showing reduced second order harmonic and reduced power supply noise below Yggdrasil LIM it's likely Multiform cranks this hard way balanced's effectiveness to 11.

And I think this aligns with Mike's post on Head Fi from 2022:
"A whole new way of analog/digital coupling which is giving me a 35 year maxima in audio wood."

Considering @purr1n said Mike was quite ecstatic for him to have a listen to Multiform in 2023, yeah I'm pretty sure this is referring to Multiform.

 

Unless I missed it, has anyone paired a Gungnir 2 with a Mjolnir 3? If so, how is the synergy with that combo? I'm thinking of upgrading to this, and use a HD600, HD650, ZMF Autuer Classic, and some others with that setup... I know that @purr1n has stated in another thread that the ZMF Autuer Classic paired well with the Mjolnir 3. Although, I'm not sure which DAC he was using at the time.