Seas A26 kit

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by murphythecat, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    I don't think you'd mind if the woofer is cut off low enough, 200..400 Hz. To find an adequate mid driver is the real challenge.
    Also this.
    Troels style is to cross woofer-mid quite low down contrasting JBL like things, where big woofers play a lot to the mids.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    How big is your room? 15" on an open baffle, maybe U-frame with some stuffing behind it will work. A small sub to cover below 40Hz (If sub plate amp, I'd set the LP to 33-34Hz).
     
  3. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Here my problem with recommending Troels to people on this forum:
    1. Requires level 127 wood-working skills
    2. Requires $7000 of tools
    3. Requires 20x20 space dedicated to woodworking
    4. Requires $12,382 in drivers
    5. Requires another $4338 in xover parts, although we can elect to go cheap here
    6. With a handful of exceptions, designs are moderate/low efficiency
    7. With a handful of exceptions, designs use xovers with 44 parts
    8. Requires a truck for the lumber yard visits
     
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  5. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Having someone locally build the cabinets will alleviate most of those issues.
     
  6. JK47

    JK47 Guest

    At what cost? Will you feel the awesomeness of DIY too (direct jab at former participant here)? SBAF is somewhat based upon high value, the spirit of DIY, and creating something greater than the sum of it's parts.

    DIY... You can and will make mistakes, but learning from those mistakes are what counts.
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Troels' cabs can be intricate. The sloped surfaces, geometric designs that look like Daleks with personal force fields in Dune, etc. They are done for a reason. Not many people I would trust to do it right, much less understanding from typical cabinet builders on internal reinforcement or doubling up on baffles.

    A good woodworker might charge $1k for small cabs, $2k for the medium-sized ones, and $4k for the larger more intricate stuff. Add costs of parts, and we are better off buying @brencho's Marten Bird 2 speakers when he decides to upgrade in a few years.
     
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  8. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    This build in particular is 95db and practically a rear loaded horn.

    But yeah, i need a few more experience points and equipment upgrades before I would attempt that build. Need to spend more time in the slime caves
     
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  9. msommers

    msommers High on Epipens

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    Werd, I hear ya man.

    Thing is though, Marv just outlined a few of the costs to DIY. If you plan on building more DIY, investing in tools is wise and overall cheaper. However, depending on where you live, space could be a premium and not everyone has room to build. Unless you're hardcore bachelor padding it and you can setup a shop in your living room! But then you'll be bachelor padding it for the rest of your life.

    So you got the tool cost, hopefully the space and add the cost of materials for first, second, whatever fuck ups that will come...that you will learn from as you've mentioned.

    This kit seems to be a good option as a first DIY. You can try to build a fairly simple cabinet or just have it built for a modest price ($400 USD) and learn the other skills that come with building speakers on your own.

    Plus it seems that it sounds pretty damn good. Winning.
     
  10. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    All good points and first three are not negotiable, either.
    I got inspired by Troels:
    First learned to be a carpenter, took a year, and I'm pretty good now;
    then bought all the pro tools (Makita fanboy) to the point I was broke;
    then bought a farm to have space to build, got more broke;
    + etc.
    Still haven't finished the final thing.
    People around me say I'm nuts.
    The goal was to go 'ballz to the wall' and I'm not backing down.
    I wouldn't recommend this road to most guys, either.
     
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  11. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    Well, 2 and 3 are. I believe @philipmorgan built his edgarhorns in a FabLab and it's far more complicated then anything I've seen by Troels.
     
  12. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Renting a place & tools is not cheap, either.
    I estimated that buying tools is only more expensive when renting time work goes all by plans.
    It never goes the first time. And I get to keep the tools for future fun.

    Option 2: I have an acquaintance carpenter who could have built me anything,
    had I provided SolidWorks drawings --> it's still skill and a lot of $$ for anything more complex than rectangular box.
    I really hesitated here, as the drawings and the model needs to be perfect, otherwise it's a mess.
    His service would be useful for small patch series production, after the prototype is evolved to maturity.

    No point doing diy if something 99% the same could be bought off the shelf.

    I don't see the edgar horn woodwork as particularly neck braking with some basic skills on lathe.
    I find it a lot more challenging to put together something like a B&W 800 style enclosure from wood w/o a 50 ton press.

    I see the Troels 'challenges' speaking to a particular kind of tinkerers.
    Most of them are not for beginners who live in a big city apartment.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  13. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    I've had people give me their speaker xovers, say the smaller 8-12 part deals, to sort out, and I'm like WTF is this?

    I've literally had to start over: take all the pieces out, get a piece of cardboard or wood, and fricking draw the schematic on it.

    It's harder to put simple schematics into practice than we would think, especially if there is no PCB with clear labels on them.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Super Friend

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    Far more acceptable than a few tables, random speakers, and a rack with an AP-555 in an otherwise empty living room with the fireplace on the wall to the left.

    Woodshop in living room = serious craftsman
    Measurement center with AP-555 in living room = weirdo
     
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  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I just saw the price list (which does not include the 4 Eminence drivers or cabinets). Not cheap. Not easy to build.

    For that $ I would just say fuck it, and buy a Forte III from Klipsch, which has a similar frequency response range as the DTQWT and more output. Looks nicer IMO too (I kind of stained my pants a little when I saw this: https://www.klipsch.com/products/forte-iii).

    For less $ but less frequency response range, maybe a Heresy III, but a sub will be needed More so than with the Forte III, based on specs.

    All these are horn loaded 3-way. So not a fair comparison with the way more affordable and truly complete A26 kit. Something is gotta give.

    I would probably not do any of this things, because I need space. I barely could fit the Christmas tree this year.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  16. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @philipmorgan is not human.

    EDIT: BTW @Priidik, I'm a DeWalt fanboy.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  17. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I was joking. At least partly. I put the tallboy DTQWT firmly in the insane build category, but value-wise it's not all that bad. Carpentry-wise I'd rate it as a moderately difficult build, as long as one has the space to do it. I have my eastern European bias, getting a good man to do the woodwork here is pennies. A bit more expensive if fancy finishes are required, but you're still a far cry away from what such a construction would cost commercially.

    As for Klipsch boxes, I'd wager that they might have lower quality drivers than Troels' DTQWT. And in the case of Forte, it's a bit of a stretch to call them horn speakers. The bass uses a passive radiator and both mids and highs are compression drivers with a waveguide. SPL wise compression drivers do walk over just about everything, but many speaker designers agree that sound wise they can leave much to be desired, when compared to more traditional dome tweeters. Otherwise the domes would go extinct.

    I'm with you there!
     
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  18. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    By horn I meant the waveguides in the compression drivers (tweeter and mid). I thought waveguides were also known as constant directivity horns. But indeed, Klipsch is known for it's large woofer horns that play with the room, and are used in their bigger models (not Forte, Heresy or Cornwall - only La Scala and Klipschorn).

    EDIT: LOL! I think Heresy is called like that because La Scalia and Klipschorn were horn all through and through and Heresy broke the mold by not loading the woofer. Cornwall and Forte came after Heresy, and use larger cabinets and drivers but still no folded horn.

    I'm not that against compression drivers. Some designs seem to measure well and are well liked. But I have heard more domes. I believe some smaller tweeters have probably a larger reasonable off-axis response than compression drivers or horn loaded tweeters. But with-in a reasonable listening window, things probably work out fine either way, and like we said, you do get more output. Neither is going anywhere.

    The A26 seems to have as one main goal sensitivity in a minimialistic design that manage to sound good. I do not think they are aiming at superior off-axis response, or reference level frequency response across the whole spectrum. It's a good kit IMO. But even Madisound lists it's limitations and provides some tips.

    Either way. I currently can't fit these designs. Othewise I would have done it already.

    EDIT: And given the "DIY" prices (where "DIY" seems to mean you have someone "DIY" for you), for high output I would just say fuck it, I'm getting a Forte III (after I get a listen).
     
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    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  19. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I respect Troels very much, however he is not interest in building big woofer speakers, also his kits does involve quite a commitment as mentioned.
    I would not look at regular domes for anything larger than 10". You would have to start looking into compression drivers and go PA for bigger speakers. How about some larger coaxials, for a small room?
    They do not usually measure flat, but they have other benefits ( they need very little distance to the listener).
     
  20. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    What about the Loudspeaker?
     
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