The Two Channel Advice Thread

Discussion in 'Advice Threads' started by purr1n, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. nishan99

    nishan99 Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2019
    Likes Received:
    637
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Layla
    That's what I would call sound tactility, you feel the sound rather than just hearing it and it's not only applicable for bass but also all other frequencies below ~7khz.

    I think this deluxe attribute of sound is difficult to get without sacrificing everything else. It requires a fast speaker but with pistonic driver behavior (bigger woofers or smaller but stiffer woofers). So you need high sensitivity cone based speakers.

    How much sensitivity and how much pistonic behavior? A: how much you're willing to sacrifice other attributes or how much money are you willing to throw?.

    My towers (8.5k USD) have two 6.3'' dedicated bass woofers with a sensitivity of 91dB with a very good driver stiffness and driving them with 250 WPC SS amp in medium sized room listening 8 feet away and they're still two levels below Focal Elex headphone's tactility (btw I rate Focals headphones tactility 10/10, ZMF Verite is 9).
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  2. Cryptowolf

    Cryptowolf Repping Chi Town - Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    560
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Rural Illilnois
    I am by no means an expert. My experience with 2.1 has been limited to a pair of dual driver Paradigm Phantoms and my current Omega 3XR. The Omega are full range drivers in a tower cabinet. The reason I am sharing at that these diminutive Omega’s, coupled with the Omega Deep Hemp sub, have far more thwack than my other Paradigm Phantoms with 8” drivers.

    I think this may have something to do with the great middle presence and upper mid-bass presence for the Omegas. Upright bass and cello have more texture and micro-detail with the Omega.

    I’m interested in trying Bixby’s idea to see if I can dial in what eq area of my system gives the best thwack tone.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  3. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    [​IMG]
    An old picture, but the positions are the same. Unfortunately, this is the space I am looking at. Just out of frame to the left is a wall mounted heater and out of the frame to the right is a wall. I can't pull the speakers more than another inch or two into the room so particularly the left speaker is in the space it can be in. Between the left wall and the edge of the TV is roughly 12 inches. This is a small apartment and is the only configuration that works. For movies and casual music, it works just fine, but for any real listening, I am limited to my headphone rig. Super non-ideal which is why I haven't had a ton of enthusiasm for getting a better 2 channel system.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  4. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,178
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    Hey, how did you get my TV speakers on your setup? Energy RC-10, shhh, people do not need to know about them. And what is on top of them?
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 2
    • List
  5. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Those are some Energy RC-Micros. They are currently facing the ceiling as my Atmos height channel for now until I install some proper ceiling speakers. The RC-10s are seriously enjoyable, especially for the price they were going for at the end of their run. Perfect for movies, as their laid back nature allows me to crank the volume a bit.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 2
    • List
  6. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,178
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    Wow, great idea.

    Just a little secret for folks out there, you can still get the RC-10s new for under $200 (orig price $550 iirc). Out of the dozens of speakers I have owned over the past 40+ years, those are the #1 value kings. Not perfect but so good for the money it is crazy.

    As for laid back, perhaps in the context of most of speakers on the market, But if you look at frequency response measurements, I would only call them that if I was like so many folks who have a preference for upward tilting treble or have some hearing loss.. At least they do not get tiring at all.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 4
    • List
  7. fraggler

    fraggler A Happy & Busy Life

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,919
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Yeah, my terminology selection still stinks, but basically, I call them laid back because their treble has never bothered me, even at moderately high volume (for me). But they don't "thwack" hence the inquiries :)
     
  8. bixby

    bixby Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,178
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Northern Colorado
    no, your terminology is fine, I just wanted to make a point that these are rather neutral. As for thwacking, yup, in my opinion they are just not efficient enough.
     
  9. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    South Central PA
    Musings on thwack

    My reference for thwack is Tickle Toe from Lyle Lovett's It's Not Big It's Large
    I listened to it just now, 88dB avg sound level using an app from Armstrong Flooring (they do acoustic treatments) and it matches up pretty well to a Rat Shack analog sound meter
    This is a big band pretty much off the leash - a lot of energy, and I find I feel quite a lot of it as well as hearing it. Not just the kick drum and the upright bass, but the toms and the big brass
    I haven't done much formal frequency response measuring, but to get that sensory experience, my hypothesis is that there were 2 significant changes that made a big improvement.

    First, I upgraded from an older Hsu subwoofer to a Rythmik L22. After the honeymoon period of having a subwoofer at all, the Hsu was disappointing in that it was hard to tell electric bass from acoustic. The Hsu was ported, the Rythmik is sealed. It's also better located, it's dead center between the L & R speakers. This lets me cross over at 120Hz and I don't notice any sound coming from the sub, to my ears everything just seems to be placed correctly across the stage

    Second, after a room remodel, it was hard to place instruments and voices, things were pretty blurry. So I made 2 large panels from batting and placed them exactly at the 1st reflection point and added some carpeting between the couch and the bookcases in which the TV and audio sit
    Shazam. If the recording had that placement info, it was now easy to hear where performers were located. I also surmise that hearing more of the direct speaker radiation and less reflection also made the attacks and transients stand out more, they were less spread out in time due to the summing with more audible reflections.

    I used to follow a couple threads on AVSForums, and there was a lot of discussion among the movie buffs that the visceral punch comes more from 50 to 100+Hz rather than the lowest bass, but it's still a lot of power required and it's rare that a bookshelf can supply it

    So maybe you could experiment with a different sub and room treatment to see if that's a path that could get you there
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 3
    • List
  10. luckybaer

    luckybaer Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,534
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Missouri
    If I have an amp with just one pair of speaker binding posts (like Vidar), it isn’t possible to run my two main speakers PLUS a sub off the same binding posts, right?
     
  11. ergopower

    ergopower Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Likes Received:
    408
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    South Central PA
    It's possible. Some subs accept a speaker-level input. It goes through a crossover and the high pass goes on to your speakers. The low pass is stepped down and drives the sub's amp.
     
  12. luckybaer

    luckybaer Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,534
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Missouri
    I do it with my main system amp and an SVS SB-1000 sub, but my amp (Rotel RB-1582 MkII) has two pair of posts, so in theory it could drive my main speakers and 2 others. Right now it drives my 2 speakers and sub.

    I don’t know if it was my imagination, but I thought I noticed a difference when I switched to the speaker-level inputs from the inputs fed by my preamp.
     
  13. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,662
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    The extra posts are not extra amp channels, they are simply a second set of binding posts on the same channel. Some people like to bi-wire or whatever, so this lets you do that without mashing extra wires into a single binding post.

    If you're feeding speaker level into an active sub, that's usually ok. If you're feeding a passive sub, be careful because you could potentially overload the amp channel if the parallel impedance of the speaker and sub drops too low. You might potentially alter the sound out of the one side that's also powering the passive sub.
     
  14. luckybaer

    luckybaer Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,534
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Missouri
    That makes sense.
    Just to be clear: if I owned a single Vidar (for example) I could connect my passive speakers AND an active sub to the single pair of binding posts?
     
  15. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    5,107
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Provided the effect isn't a result of the low-impedance current starvation that @Armaegis mentions above, you might have just discovered that different amps (your integrated vs the sub's plate) sound different. ;) The internets are replete with mentions that this might be a reason to run your sub high-level from the one amp rather than making the sub active.

    If you have particular sonic impressions of the differences, maybe post them in the General Subwoofer Advice Thread. Always good to compile local data.
    Certainly, if you run a second set of speaker wires to something like this and plug the outputs into the sub's low-level inputs:

    https://www.russound.com/products/a...devices/adp-1-2-speaker-to-line-level-adapter

    I'm doing this myself, but idk if it's viewed as a very good solution - again, sub advice thread might be a good place.
     
  16. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    4,662
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Winnipeg
    Yes, your sub has high-level inputs so you can plug right in directly to the binding posts on the sub.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  17. Biodegraded

    Biodegraded Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    5,107
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    My bad, I didn't spot that your Khozmo pre has multiple outputs - so if you did want to run the sub from line level why the hell would you need to go via an adapter from the power amp (shame I can't give my own post a 'Miss Information' tag :rolleyes:). My integrated amp has no pre-outs and my sub has no speaker-level inputs, so for me the adapter is a necessity.

    Would still be interested to read about the diffs you hear using the speaker-level vs line-level (ie stereo amp/s vs sub amp) inputs though.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  18. luckybaer

    luckybaer Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    2,534
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Missouri
    I went ahead and made a rambling post in the subwoofer advice thread that details my "journey." :)
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List
  19. zerodeefex

    zerodeefex Grumpiest admin

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Likes Received:
    12,602
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Did you ever get any recs here? I have an atmos in ceiling setup in the basement with the projector but I need something unobtrusive in our living room given the LG CX is already imposing enough. I don't want to look like the inside of a radio shack barfed in my main living space and now I'm thinking of the Sonos Arc.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 2
    • List
  20. YMO

    YMO it's not drinking alone if you're on Zoom

    Friend
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Likes Received:
    6,742
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    DUVALLL-904
    Hey bud. I don't think I did since I didn't proceed with anything ATM. My 620 sq ft apartment has too much stuff to the point GF and I don't even have a TV area at all with speakers. We decided for any "TV" just use tablets...which isn't too often.
     
    • Like / Agree Like / Agree x 1
    • List

Share This Page