What makes a speaker suitable for nearfield listening?

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by 9suns, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I think @9suns should be able to experiment with that with some ease.

    I think I said it wrong.

    I meant to say the xover point should be as low as possible to avoid beaming. I'm dyslexic.

    The baffle step compensation is not universal. It depends on the dimensions of the box. Also, are you using open baffle speakers?
     
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  2. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    Most has already been said, so I'll try not to repeat too much...

    First I'd voice nearfields less bassy. I like to keep the bass slightly lean and tune the port very low to get the most possible extension and have room gain take the bass back to neutral. With stand-mounted monitors there will be less boundary gain, often less than with floorstanders so I'd tune them for more midbass and less extension.
    If the nearfields are supposed to be put on a desk like a studio monitor the floor bounce becomes desk bounce and goes way up in frequency, from say 300Hz to 900Hz (depending on the height of the drivers and the listening distance). This needs to be considered and the midrange voiced differently. Since the desk is so close you will also need less BSC in the lower midrange.
    The nearfield speakers will be more efficient, but also require less excursion for the same volume level. You could get away with smaller drivers for better dispersion. Still, I also find that nearfields are less dependent on an even polar response (at least at extreme off-axis angles) than stand mounted speakers since the room reverb will have less of an effect on the sound anyway (more direct vs reflected energy in a nearfield environment). At the same time most nearfield guys are pretty focused on a neutral and smooth on-axis FR. Minimal damping in a typical living room might cause the upper mids to sound too harsh so for a stand-mount I'd possibly dial back the upper midrange a tiny bit to compensate, whereas I'd go for a more aggressive, "reference" voicing for a studio or nearfield environment.

    Overall I'd say nearfields can be more efficient with deeper bass extension, leaner and brighter. A speaker like that will probably sound craptastic in an undamped living room far away from all walls.

    Ideally you'd need some sort of EQ. A generic BSC probably won't help too much.

    I also read the Kairo article again...
    At that point, why not just make a real LR2 filter? I've played around with phase linearization and IMO correct driver polarity is much more important than a bit of excess phase shift. I know Troels also did it like that because it's simply normally not easy (and doesn't make a lot of sense) to cross first order from a midwoofer to a tweeter, but a first order crossover with one driver inverted isn't a first order crossover.
    Then again I'm not surprised it sounded better than the other crossover which didn't even sum properly and had nulls both below and above the listening axis.
    Well, unless of course you're dealing with small speakers that are also supposed to have some semblance of bass output.
     
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  3. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    True. Always a compromise. For now. Tech is getting better all the time :)

    Glue it on a pipe, fill pipe with cotton wool, problem solved.
     
  4. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    @Priidik, @Ardacer, @9suns, and all.

    Yup. Meant to say xover as low as possible to avoid beaming. Again. Bare with me here. I'm dyslexic.
     
  5. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    @ultrabike No, just said it because in the B5 description is mentioned the baffle step compensation, but no in the B4's.

    @Serious Thanks for such a detailed answer!
    I've only mentioned the Kairos in the context of the Satori driver in a sealed box, it's a speaker designed for placement away from the walls, so definetely not what I'm looking for.
    The true L2 crossover is a great idea, in fact I was thinking about one for the speaker, I've visited Troels website like 2 trillion times this month :oops:

    By the way, sorry if I'm not being clear today, but I had quite a sloppy day, and while usually is rainy and cold here, today was (still is) one of the hottest days of the year, thus I'm dumber than usual, specially using a second language lol
     
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  6. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Oh. You mean the Pluto? I can't get over how fuggly that is though. And that dude still used DSP if I remember correctly.
     
  7. Cspirou

    Cspirou They call me Sparky

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    We get it, the LXMini is the only thing @9suns should consider building.
     
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  8. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Was kinda strange, thought you made a lapsus, but after thinking about it, actually goes both ways, you really need to find the optimal frequency to match directivity, and have at least an octave or two of good behaviour above/below.
    I kinda like it, but not necessarily pluto, might put the cylinder horisontally and make it short, it's just that as small a baffle as possible, the best, optimally no baffle (other than the driver edge itself, or, as you said, an on purpose designed waveguide)
    BTW he only eq-ed the low end I think. If you don't wanna do it, you don't really have to.

    No. But yes. (joking)
    Very small box with good drivers like @ultrabike did recently is a perfectly cool option too. Still, no baffle is best, no going around it.
     
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  9. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    I just wanted to poke my nose in here, and say I listen to my Harbeths near-field and they sound amazing. The nice thing I've found with them nearfield is they sound even, the frequency response is nice and flat in my modestly treated room. If there was issues with frequency response, I feel like they're largely non-issue due to my near-field placement. Anyway, I advocate near-field as long as your speakers are suitable for it! In that regard Harbeths seem to fit the bill. At the moment have it setup in a 7x7 triangle and have followed the cardas golden ratio as best I could. I will ask Alan Shaw personally what makes Harbeths so good for near-field, it'd be interesting to see his take on it...
     
  10. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Which Harbeth model?
     
  11. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    I make those kinds of mistakes often.

    For directivity, I feel that if one could find a 1/4" tweeter that could do all the way down to 20 Hz of bass flat at 90 dB sensitivity, a lot of folks would be out of business.

    Unfortunately, that unicorn does not exist and so we then have woofers, subwoofers, boxes, and cross-overs.
     
  12. direstraitsfan98

    direstraitsfan98 D2Girls v2.0

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    The 30.2 40th anniversary model

    I chose this model because of its more even measurements and based on feedback I was given from owners that it sounds more neutral than the 30.1. The stereophile measurements done by J. Atkinson seemed to confirm this. I also have to agree with them based on my listening sessions. Honestly I come home from work and listen to music non stop for 8 hours then go to bed and wake up early and listen to music for another few hours before I head to work. I love my Harbeths.
     
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  13. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    Challenge accepted xD
    I actually did a calculation of how much excursion a 1" tweeter would need to do 20 Hz. Just a couple of meters, no big deal.

    Also, spherical enclosures would be a good thing too, or small boxes with very rounded edges like that kef thing.
     
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  14. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    There are really both schools of thought here, neither which I think is totally correct. With large baffles you can also get nice directivity and an even power response, just maybe not as smooth a directivity with an OB at very large off-axis angles or as wide a dispersion as a narrow floorstander, but you also gain efficiency, which translates into lower distortion. Often times when you have bigger baffles you'll end up using bigger drivers anyway, so you get even higher efficiency and even lower distortion. This is not trivial and not something DSP can solve. Even using 10 5" drivers in a line array will give you only about as much cone area as a 15" driver and the volume displacement capabilites of those drivers probably wouldn't get close to the 15" woofer. But since you're dealing with more baffle step losses you would need even more excursion...

    Large baffle = High efficiency, low distortion
    Small baffle = High WAF, possibly very wide and even power response

    Note that I am more a large baffle guy, but that's not the topic of this thread.
     
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  15. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Fuck you guys I like small little tiny boxes.

    Specially if they go really low. They may not push a shit ton of air. But they are fun.
     
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  16. Ardacer

    Ardacer needs to read more, post less

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    SL designs = "go fuck yourself with that pipe" WAF

    One thing I'd definatelly advise is against consumer grade monitors. They have shitty amps with really audible noise floor. Check this out:

    I have 2 pairs of KRKs I use for noncritical listening (gaming, background, TV, etc). Their noise floor is bugging me. It's VERY audible. Even in far field actually, I've got a quiet room. Apparently most of these integrated amps is similar shit.
     
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  17. ultrabike

    ultrabike Measurbator - Admin

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    Yup, they tend to have some noise.

    The MR5s are not that bad, but they still have some noise issues. I have to put my ear against the speaker to hear it though. Other monitors are worse.

    Considering another passive build, smaller than the MR5 but with more bass. Paired maybe with a small speaker amp. That would mean a sale at some point. Not in a hurry.
     
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  18. mitochondrium

    mitochondrium Friend

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    At least here in Europe the Satori TW29R-B is quite pricey. This one looks quite good, too:

    http://www.wavecor.com/html/tw030wa11_12.html

    It has an even lower resonance frequency. Allows you to have a lower xover. The sensivity for the 4 Ohm version is a little higher.

    InEurope the wavecor is cheaper in the States there does not seem to be much of a price difference

    http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/tweeters/ring-dome/satori-tw29r-b/

    Just realised that you are located in EU, then the wavecor should be cheaper than the Satori
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  19. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Need to look at the HD values as well. The wavecor has a bit less in terms of power handling as well.
     
  20. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    100+ bucks a piece I would not make a tweeter decision based on graphs and specs. Entry level stuff, sure.
    There are very good measuring sub 50 dollar tweeters around.

    Satori is widely accepted as high-end, used in many diy designs, while the Wavecor is rather unknown.
    One is a dome, the other donut+dome (ring driver). Likely sound quite different on same baffle.
     

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