ZMF Verite Measurements

Discussion in 'Headphone Measurements' started by purr1n, Nov 2, 2018.

  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    ZMF Verite Frequency Response - Verite Pads
    https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...f-verite-measurements.7043/page-2#post-232286

    ZMF Verite Frequency Response - Universal Pads
    ZMF Verite Frequency Response.png

    NOTE: 7kHz dip looks like a measurement artifact. CSDs below show that 7kHz dip filled a few slices (44.1kHz) later. Overall CSDs look very clean. Looks like the small 3kHz is a minor peak - see the 3kHz ridge on CSD. Amplitude of ringing is low and duration is somewhat short. Definitely bassy, not as bassy as we would think. There is a wide midbass bump - low and sub bass are not excessive.

    Verite CSDs - Universal Pads
    Verite L.jpg
    Verite R.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Verite Distortion
    ZMF Verite L HD.jpg
    ZMF Verite R HD.jpg
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
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  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Note: original EARS FR was wrong. Fixed now.
     
  5. MF_Kitten

    MF_Kitten Almost "Made"

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    Holy crap, that is some serious air up top!
     
  6. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Yeah, I wouldn't stress some of those measurement artifacts. I got them too even with earlier tunings, and yet they didn't necessarily strike me as audible. Not as bassy as you'd think either, as you said.

    What's really peculiar is that, even after all the tweaks I applied with Zach's help, the measurements barely nudged despite noticeable subjective changes! Very bizarre.

    And none of the measurements captured how tight this driver sounds. I've said the word "controlled" a lot, but it's the best thing I can think of.

    It's really the sort of headphone you just have to listen to rather than scrutinize measurements too much.
     
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  7. Vtory

    Vtory Illogical Spock

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    Impressive. Verite seems to have much less distortion/harmonics (D2, D3) than ZMF's previous headphones (Eikon, Atticus, Arteur), without any strange peaks in mid (I don't think them really bad though). And also, cup resonance is quite recessed. It may result in faster transient responses (also shown in burst measurements).
     
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  8. Vtory

    Vtory Illogical Spock

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    I am speculating that your subjective impression is possibly linked to better time-domain results (in this case, csd). From the measurements, also guessing verite's drivers are more tightly controlled than at least senn's 6 and 8's .. and prol in the same ballpark as focal dynamics (elex clear utopia). What's your thought?
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    WARNING: EXPERIMENTAL MEASUREMENTS - 10 cycle bursts at 5 different frequencies.
    These measurements are good for seeing decay. There might be others better for seeing attack.

    I actually feel Verite wins here, followed by Elex. The other headphones have a hard time stopping for 50Hz and 4800Hz. LCD2C does quite well stopping at 50Hz.

    ZMF Verite 10-cycle bursts
    B1696 Verite.wav.jpg

    Compared to others:

    LCD2C
    B1696 LCD2C.wav.jpg

    Ether
    B1696 Ether.wav.jpg

    HD800
    B1696 HD800.wav.jpg

    Elex
    B1696 Elex.wav.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  10. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    Can't believe the HD800 would have a hard time stopping for 4800hz. It looks very even though, so might be the 6k resonance? I'm willing to bet that doing something higher than 6k will show HD800 stopping faster than the rest. On the other hand, the wideband performance of the Verite is nothing short of impressive.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Some subjective notes possibly relating to measurements:
    • Bass is rounded, yet articulate and not muddy at the same time. The lines feel fast, but the start and stops feel rounded. This in contrast to the Elex where there is more sharpness and abruptness to the starts and stops.
    • The main difference with something the Z1R and Verite is that the Verite has more second order than third distortion in the bass, and the third order is about one-third to one-half of the Z1R. Z1R has a lot of third order going up to 200Hz before it dies down.
    • The Z1R has sharp peaks at 3Khz, 10kHz, and 15kHz. The 10kHz is one of those razor of death deals, where it's a null in FR that turns into a narrow ridge in the CSD. It's actually not long lived, but it's evident and not pleasing. The overall hot-treble treble on the Z1R probably contributes to this not pleasing quality. The Verite slopes down and maintains steady amplitude in the last octave. Not the smoothest, but above average in that regard.
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Indeed, it may be related to the 5-6kHz peak. We do see it slowly going down in amplitude. Also, the decay measurement probably explain why I hear this canvas of grey and cloud of fluffy puff with the Ethers, and don't think they resolve very well. The Ethers measure well in FR (except for early bass roll-off if a super good seal in not achieved), and very well in distortion.

    The burst measurements are rushed. But I really think people needed to get beyond FR, what we see on FFTs, and steady state measurements.
     
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  13. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I thought I heard more emphasis around 1kHz than the FR would indicate. This was likely attributable to the cup reverb, which I felt was tastefully executed.

    Verite L reverb.jpg

    This is part of what I meant when I said this was a super TH-X00. This is the TH-X00 cup reverb. Note that Massdrop did the resonance play thing here too, offering three different woods. The Fostex cups are shallower I believe, and might be stuffed, so there is less of the effect compared to Verite. @zach915m just lets the resonance play loose without shame and without looking back.

    Fostex TH-X00 R.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    • Going back to the transient decays, the fact that the low bass stops faster than most other headphones and in on par with "fast" bass headphones such as Elex and LCD2C likely contributes to the bass not being as loud as would otherwise be indicated on the FR plot. Also, the bass doesn't continue to rise as we go lower; so we don't get this exaggerated "thunder" effect like on the TH-900. Finally, the bass is elevated above the mids, but it isn't 20db elevated!
    • There is a little treble spike at 8kHz that kind of tickles the ear a little bit. Like the TH-X00, that has similar, but more evident spike, I think it's needed to balance the overall presentation so it's not too dark sounding. This 8kHz peak is buried in each of the measurements up there - if you look hard, you will see it. If you listen hard, you will hear it.
     
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  15. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    What's not seen in these plots are how resolving the Verite are. The scale like mad with better gear. I'd need to do a second take with the HD800 to assess retrieval capabilities of low-level information, but it's very close, if not meets or perhaps exceeds. (The HD800 cheats anyway with its bright FR). The microdynamics, the volume gradations, the speed and dexterity of tiny volume changes is unparalleled, except to Focal Utopia. However, I do feel that Utopia has cleaner less soft lows from less distortion.
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I mentioned this in the other thread. The Verite has a very seductive quality. There is no doubt this is a colored headphone. But this is exactly what I mean when I say there are errors of commission and errors of omission, and that they are not mutually exclusive. The errors of omission are exceedingly few with the Verite. The errors of commission are moderately high (resonance / reverb play, more bass than neutral, etc.), and a strong matter of personal taste. I can see @Psalmanazar and @HitmanFluffy barfing all over this. But someone like @gbeast I bet would love it.

    Sony has been trying to make stuff this in the past five years with their last two headphones MDR-Z1R and MDR-Z7, and failed miserably at it. This is why I've joking stated over and over that ZMF is the finest manufacturer of Japanese headphones. @zach915m is the American headphone guru equivalent of those Japanese weirdo craftsmen who make $6,000-$15,000 phono cartridges from wood, stone, agate, onyx, etc.

    This is easily @julie's favorite headphone among ten or so I have sitting around (all of them good headphones). It might be mine too, but I really need more time. Count me super impressed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
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  17. MF_Kitten

    MF_Kitten Almost "Made"

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    Looks like it follows the ZMF mentality of "fuck it, let's just make it sound good", which I love. Measuring well is one thing. Sounding good is another.
     
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  18. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Been waiting for these, measurements look awesome! Kinda looks like an Auteur but more polite from 5kHz+, and nicer CSDs to boot.

    I've tinkered with my X00s a fair bit and nope, not stuffed; the back of the drivers just fart sound straight into the inner chamber, which for the record is pretty roughly finished and there's a (knot?)hole in the one cup besides. Caliper says the wood on mine are ~8mm going around the cup, so pretty substantive, would be interesting to see how wood thickness affects resonance in HPs.

    Subjectively speaking (because measurements in this area are a PITA to get right), how would air at the uppermost compare to HD800 or HP-3, and would the distortion blip in the lower treble be audible? Seems to line up with the measurement null, so wondering if the treble might sound a bit "wild" as a result.

    Likewise surprised by the HD800's performance at 4.8k, kinda want to get one in my house again to play with. Bit more surprised by the LCD2's subbass performance, but I guess the measurements are still in beta/subs are just harder to control.

    Also (sorry for the spam, bit excited) how's clarity/blackground compared to, say, TH900? Not a big deal for me but wondering if the romantic resonances mask rock bottom of audible threshold. Kinda curious how smooth slopes in distortion measurements sound compared to HPs with comparable levels but dips and peaks, like HP-3 or Elear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  19. Muse Wanderer

    Muse Wanderer Friend

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    Bass distorsion looks anything but awesome to me!
     
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  20. Lyer25

    Lyer25 Too sensitive for SBAF

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    Agreed, *5~10% at the bottom most is indeed surprising, ergo my question about how the "shape" of distortion might affect perception, or how the resonances might be "colouring" sound (jarring or integrated-sounding?) ; unlike impressions under show conditions I trust these to be pretty accurate.

    I don't have as much experience with gear as most of the forum, obviously, but I'm of the opinion that there are more approaches to designing components than aiming for low distortion (e.g. Nighthawk/LCD2C) or a neutral tonal balance (e.g. PMX2/Paradox). To add that I almost never encounter pronounced notes this low in the FR spectrum outside of stuff like Mitski or Daft Punk, and even then rarely, so I don't think it quite as offensive. I do wonder at whether ZMF can "get away" with allowing this under the guise of a romantic presentation and how this aspect of measurement might affect things like timbre etc., and how this ties in with its "sins of omission" v. "sins of commission".

    Perhaps a sin on my part but while I have a great deal of respect for measurements, I do still think there's a lot of the ineffable to the human experience, especially for matters of pleasure like great food or good audio.

    nth Edit: Been looking up distortion measurements of other cans, it seems to me that D2 on these (bass, specifically) is within spitting distance of Clear with D3 marginally better and D4 significantly so, the exception being D2 for the R channel which looks bonkers; distortion in R channel kinda looks like HD6XX, actually. D2 in bass on L channel actually looks close to the HD800S (revision, not plural).
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
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