Amp and DAC needed?

Hello! Looking for advice of whether an amp and/or DAC are really needed.

Currently running with headphone pairs ATH-M50x for EDM/Dubstep/etc., ATH-AD700x or less bassy music and gaming. Likely to step up to Massdrop 58x and/or 6xx in the near future, though still scoping out what. Headphones are ran through an Apple dongle from PC (Gigabyte B650 Aorus Elite AX mobo, fwiw in terms of audio tech).

Music is largely streamed through Amazon music, most often HD (16 bit) or Ultra HD (24 bit). It plays plenty loud with these headphones, and wouldn't expect not to with some higher quality headphones. So this poses the question of whether an amp and/or DAC are needed for my situation. What will I gain?

I've considered getting the Schiit Magni+, and if a DAC would be beneficial beyond the Apple dongle, possibly the Magni Unity w/ the built-in DAC. But, of course, then unsure whether worth getting the Magni+ & Modi+ as separate, or no gain vs. the Unity.

Getting into this audiophile game is tough - a lot to take in.

 

nope, sounds like you have a good setup. continue to enjoy music and expand your musical taste as you mature through life.

don't do it! it's not too late for you to turn back.

 

Only thing I will add is that if you do get the 6XX in the future, only then consider getting a dedicated headphone amp. Otherwise your current ATH headphones and if you get the 58x, are easy to drive, and your apple dongle and the Aorus Elite's audio capabilities are more than enough for these.

 

No no, embrace the darkness. We have cookies!

Go from M50x to Beyerdynamic DT770
AD700x to AD2000x (if you can find it) or perhaps the AKG K612pro
Start with amps, add dac later and just use the dongle for now.
Schiit stuff is always a solid start and doesn't break the budget. Spend more money on the headphones than anything else at this stage of the game.

 

Walnut cookies!

It's a lot of dumb and wasted money, IMO, unless you're in a position where you can afford to mess around and borrow gear to try out for yourself, at your leisure, in which case it's then just cost of shipping at risk.

At the end of the day I sorta agree with @k4rstar in spirit-- if you can enjoy music and movies and games and anything else with what you have, be it M50xes or $5 earphones, more power to ya. That said, there's a lot that a "nicer" system can do to elevate the experience, shape it more to what really works for you.

@Armaegis gave great advice above, but I'd offer a couple caveats; the DT770 is better than the M50x for midrange normalcy, but HOLY CRAP does the DT770 have a lot of treble. Great for catching sibilants in stuff you're mixing, but if it's also going to be used for enjoyment and you don't need great isolation, I'll toss in a recommendation for the 250ohm DT880 instead-- that one's a semi-open headphone with a lot of damping, it does attenuate more outside noise than most expect, though it's not as good as the DT770 in that regard.

Starting with amps out of whatever sources you already have is smart, I do opine that it's gonna be headphones/speakers>=amplification>>DAC>>>>>>other stuff in terms of magnitude of differences.

Amplifiers aren't just about making things louder. What you want with a good amp is sort of a nice synergy with your headphones/speakers, control the diaphragm in such a way as to MAYBE shape ADSR to better suit your preferences, allow for better "imaging" of sound, etc etc. DACs are a factor here too, but again, it won't be nearly as drastic a change.

But really, the M50x out of a dongle is fine. Not my cuppa tea, but I'm spoiled.

Tangent, but you can sorta see here how there's a fair lot to how amplifiers can really inform the sound you're getting. Not sure how very intuitive reading the graphs here might be, but there's also talk about how these translate to sound being experienced:

https://superbestaudiofriends.org/i...n-surface-old-measurement-new-approach.13754/


EDIT:

Ahh, damn, how could I have forgotten. @rehpyc this could be a good thread to read. Also, I think you missed out on introductions?

https://www.superbestaudiofriends.o...-winning-budget-setup-sbaf-style.12955/page-3

 

Nothing of that sort is really needed. It just helps getting the best of the headphones you own or plan to own, if they scale with a better amp and/or dac. This hobby is about the luxury of enjoying higher sound quality. Everybody will discover what aspects of audio quality they value the most along the way, if they care. The more you listen, the more you might buy stuff to explore, the more what the audiophile game is might clear up. There's no shortcut for actual experience and taking in information along the way. If you want to have a taste of the audiophile journey, it's nice to choose headphones that will react to changes you make in your chain (like a different amp or dac). The HD6XX is that sort of headphones, because they scale with better gear IMO. You might find them boring at first or forever depending on your sensibility. I have developed quite an appreciation for them. The midrange tonality and resolution is excellent, but you probably won't be able to appreciate this quality with EDM and Dubstep. Vocals would definitely help, and instruments that are not synthesized. HD6XXs also have become a reference in the hobby, so it's a good way to understand what other people are talking about. I never heard the Magni+, the Modi+, the Magni Unity or it's built-in dac, so I can't say they are going to be better than what you have (which I also haven't heard), but I would be surprised it's not better in a way because it's more of a dedicated solution. Schiit is not overpriced and can be really good depending on the product. IME, what you get by investing in an amp or a dac is better resolution, tonal (and dynamics) synergy, less fatigue, veil or mud (etc.), but mainly what you might get is your first step to understand the reality of the audiophile journey. Slowly, the game might unravel. You don't have to care. It's a hobby. Do you have the time and money to put in it? You can also buy whatever or nothing, and call it a day. It's your choice. There is no easy answer.

 

A few other things you should tell us:
- are you strictly a computer listener? or would you like headphones that you can also take portable out of a dongle?
- do you have a rough budget in mind? We can all throw random suggestions at you and it'll be up to you to see what catches your fancy
- related to above, do you want to play to game of rotating through gear, buying/selling/trading? some people enjoy that and it's all part of the learning experience, but it's also a large time sink, and let's be frank sometimes you have to pick your poisons when it comes to which hobbies you can sink into

 

A writer once said if you can avoid writing you should, and I say if you can avoid being an audiophile you should.

This is all a fool's errand and everyone here is somehow demented.

That's not hyperbole. No really, I swear, you should truly f**k off for your own well being if you haven't already heard the sirens in the deep. You won't be made happier, only poorer.

So if you can, go on, git. Otherwise, google "negative freeroll"

 

Beyond the excellent advice to LURK MOAR, I think the advice to message Friends with specific questions (as long as you're not an incel, an asshole, or an ASR True Believer) is extremely solid advice. It's what got @caute into the DMs of many of the long term people here and got us endeared to him and ultimately got many of us to take him under our wing and share whatever we have and befriend him. If you're weird it won't go anywhere, but if you're genuine and have honest enthusiasm I think many people here will be happy to share their own enthusiasm mixed with the knowledge they've gained along the way and you might just make a friend or two.

But also yeah you gotta pay the tax and post in the new member thread. Though we're much kinder about reminders now than we used to be.

Welcome, and if your intentions are honest you should do well here.

 

Wow, appreciate all the replies! Forgive me for not posting in the new member thread - just did!

It sounds like a general consensus that right now an amp or better DAC above the dongle aren't truly necessary. I should have noted before that I actually have the M50x BTs, which are then what's often used when traveling. Though, I do also have AirPod Pro 2s for working out and the convenience factor. I have heard before that better headphones (Drop 6xx, Sundaras) scale well with better equipment, especially the amp. I do have $200-500 of some disposable income that I may invest in a step up in audio equipment, so duly noted that headphones first before other pieces.

I'm definitely not looking to get into the world of collecting headphones or equipment, trading, or a continual journey of going for the next best thing. For now, really just focused on how I would best step up the immediate game, spending the money where it'd most make sense. If I were to step up to the Sundaras, are these a good balance between my current AD700 & M50x?

Off a suggestion elsewhere, since my original post I purchased the 7Hz x Crinacle Zero 2s for work, as I've forever used some cheap Panasonic ErgoFit earbuds, and I don't want to use full-size headphones. And, wow, what I've read about these things haven't disappointed - some great separation of sound, and overall good sound for only $25. I also paired these with another Apple dongle, and now I kind of get where an amp may become needed when driven by a laptop, as adding the dongle to the mix required putting the volume significantly higher than without it. It puts things in perspective with my home desktop, likely having a decent audio driver on this motherboard, where right now one isn't needed but may in the future with harder-to-drive headphones.

 

There's a steep price gap between entry stuff and "mid-fi". Say you want a HD650. I think it sounds way less enjoyable than the M50x, unless you add to it a basic DAC/amp. Issue is, now you're looking at spending around 500-700€. Straight outta the PC the HD650 sounds terrible (underpowered, compressed mostly).

I wouldn't bother wasting money on anything less than the HD650 + a Modi/Magni stack (consider iFi Zen DAC + Zen Can combo too). That's a real upgrade to the M50x*. Anything less would be sidegrading. Question is if you wanna spend that money or not.

Worst thing you can do is spend money on dumb amounts of entry level headphones. It's better to save up, chill, enjoy what you have, and then spend the money on a straight upgrade. That's way cheaper in the long run. There's too many newcomers to the hobby who end up with "collections" of 100-150$ headphones, or sell what they have, only to buy something marginally better (say you sell the M50x and get a HD599, or a DT880).

Here we don't really have many people into it, but try to EQ your Audio Technica headphones to get them to sound more correct and neutral. They both have a rather odd FR. This way you'll also adjust yourself better once the HD650 + DAC/AMP combo will come in. Also when getting the HD650 combo, look into second hand stuff. If you don't like it, you can always sell it for the same price you bought it for

*well actually the M50x does subbass better than a HD650, but everything else is worse

 

I'm gonna recommend a JAR660 and a Nitsch Piety amp. Why? Because I'm shamelessly looking to sell mine

 

Maybe @YMO will sell you his Vali 2. Great amp for HD6XX.