Audio Science Review Review

Discussion in 'Audio Science' started by purr1n, Aug 30, 2020.

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  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    CASE 2: Ignoring objective measurements when it's convenient or when there is a business relationship

    You mean these two speakers?

    upload_2020-8-30_17-39-50.png

    upload_2020-8-30_17-45-39.png
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    The below plot is the aforementioned JBL 305P (mk2).
    The above graph is the SVS Ultra Bookshelves with the following commentary:
    https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/svs-ultra-bookshelf-speaker-review.15055/

    Subjective Listening Tests
    My instant reaction to the sound of SVS Ultra was that it sounded "warm." The upper bass frequencies that exaggerated give an immediate pleasant impression. Alas, that quickly went away and while I could hear the appeal of it, it caused everything I played to have the same characteristic which was not right. At the same time, female vocals had very sharp extensions that were almost painful to listen to. This would come and go of course as the singing went along.

    I played with EQ but after a while I gave up. Strangely no matter what I did, I could not get rid of the brightness in vocals. I did bring down the upper bass and lower mid-range level and that mostly helped but then it exaggerated the highs.

    On positive front, the SVS Ultra can play really loud with good bass capability. I could get it to start to bottom out but that was at every high playback levels.

    Conclusions
    Having looked at the measurements first before listening, I thought they would either sound good "out of the box" or do so with just a bit of EQ. That did not happen. Try as I did, I could not like the sound with or without EQ. Yes, I could see the appeal of boosted upper bass in giving "warmth" to the speaker. But too much of that was well, too much of a good thing. I am puzzled where the sharpness was coming from seeing how I could not tame it. Perhaps directivity error was causing this.

    I can't recommend a speaker that doesn't sound good to me and that is where I stand with SVS Ultra. I suspect measurement score will be good, making me look bad. So be it! upload_2020-8-30_17-50-50.gif

    This of course raises a number of issues:
    1. Why did "science" all of a sudden get thrown out the window?
    2. Why was the SVS Ultra described as warm sounding when the JBL measured with marginally more warmth in the upper bass (125-200Hz)?
    3. Why was the lower mid suckout and uneven jaggy response not noticed on the 305? The JBL was described as "smooth". In my experience, a jaggy response in the highs rarely translates in smooth, at least relative to a measured response that is actually smoother.
    4. Was the cause of the "sharpness" a matter of transient response (currently no good measurement methods) and personal preference? Is ASR admitting there may be other factors behind this which current measurements do not address. And if this is so, then why the SINAD purity tests for amplifiers and SINAD?
    5. Finally, did the JBL 305, despite uneven FR, a lower mid dip, get a fantastic subjective review because ASR / Madronal Digital is in bed with JBL? Read here: https://www.jblsynthesis.com/about/acoustics.html
    *Note that the SVS Ultra Bookshelves use an aluminum tweeter, which have a different sound than the soft domes used by JBL.
     
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  3. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    He's just a tech bro who bought audio and speaker analyzers instead of hookers and blow.

    The suckout on the JBL 305 is very obvious. The current KRK Rokit 5 G4 is a much better speaker except for the port resonance. Much less hiss too.

    The JBL 305 plate amps are just defective by design: http://rdimitrov.twistedsanity.net/blog/show.php?entry=JBL LSR305 Teardown and Analysis

    Also when pushed or overheated, drums and pops can blow the drivers. The class d amp surely is distorting massively. JBL rates it for 10% THD but the class d module is so low powered that it is massively distorting I've heard a bunch of jbl 305 with blown drivers. They're cheap disposable monitors that are fairly useless for leveling without a reference recording or doing anything in the lower mids due to the shitty cabinet.
     
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  4. Psalmanazar

    Psalmanazar Most improved member; A+

    Pyrate Slaytanic Cliff Clavin
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    Amir is the guy who constantly craps on ATC and praises Harman junk. The ASR moderation lets Ilkless pretty much slander ATC.
     
  5. Alondite

    Alondite Acquaintance

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    It's insane to me that people think this extremely limited set of measurements encompass all aspects of audio reproduction or tell us much of anything about how something sounds. They're a useful tool to correlate with what we hear and to identify any major issues, but beyond that I don't see how any intelligent person can honestly believe that a handful of measurements are the end-all determinate of quality.

    I can't help but think that there's an ego aspect to it, that some people are insecure about their modest rigs next to big dollar "True Hi-Fi" rigs and need something to validate themselves and their gear...like gear that measures better, regardless of what it actually sounds like. After all measurements are objective, so if something measures better then it must be better, right? RIGHT?!

    They accept that notion before ever even considering whether or not a set of measurements tells the whole story.
     
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  6. Grattle

    Grattle Friend

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    It’s much simpler. Amir found his congregation and is leveraging his position into cash. Those dudes at ASR practically worship the douche.
     
  7. rhythmdevils

    rhythmdevils MOT: rhythmdevils audio

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    [​IMG]

    edit: that’s better
     
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  8. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    On the one hand, it seems like it would be a wonderful thing if one could refer to a suite of measurements and determine whether an audio product is worthy of purchase. Or better yet, a single measurement. This ignores whether such a thing is even theoretically possible of course, about which I have grave doubts. But otoh, much of the joy available from the hobby (audiophilia that is, not music itself, which can bring joy even with shitty equipment) might be sucked out by that fact, or maybe it would cease to really be a hobby. Without some joy/passion experienced thereby, it isn't much of a hobby. As an aside, ASR does seem to be a rather joyless place. Must be that pesky confirmation bias again.
     
  9. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    CASE 3: Flawed listening tests / impressions not supported by measurements at the transducer or deeper analysis of amp measurements

    @dmckean44 mentioned a few posts ago about not taking the whole into consideration back a few posts ago. I then replied that in effect, most of the distortion at the ear will be from the transducer.

    Let's examine this statement at ASR in regards to the Jotuheim's output and then using the HD650.

    [​IMG]

    We get good bit of reduction of noise there. Power output increases some because I am able to push the amplifier section harder than internal DAC. But then again it gets distorted so no sense in doing that. Also, once the amp distorts, it doesn't matter if you use the DAC or not. They both meet at the same place/point as you see in the graphs.

    I did not bother with my usual level matched blind AB tests. Instead I just played some music and turned up the volume to detect distortion. WIth Sennheiser HD-650 there was fair bit of power but once you went past the 2:00 o'clock position on the volume control, you could easily hear the distortion setting in. Similar situation existed with Hifiman HE-400i. Neither could pass my test of loudness without distortion which admittedly means pretty high SPLs (sound levels).

    When I read that last statement, I immediately called bullshit. That is bullshit that this distortion was specific to the Jotenheim. I repeated the same experiment myself, using the Modius as a source, using its RCA outputs be be consistent with the measurement above. I then cranked the volume knob on the Jot (low-gain) using the HD650 with balanced connector. Then I compared it to the zero dot zero zero zero zero distortion Magnius amp. I didn't hear any of this so called extra distortion from the Jot.

    To be sure, I repeated this test with a 1kHz signal per above and measured the acoustic output from the headphone. The signal here is approximately 105-110db SPL - enough to destroy our hearing. Here are the results:

    upload_2020-8-30_19-27-33.png

    upload_2020-8-30_19-29-42.png

    I'll let you guess which output came from the Magnius and which came from the Jot where "past the 2:00 o'clock position on the volume control, you could easily hear the distortion" because given the objective results above and my own subjective listening (with music from the headphones at a healthy distance), I sure as hell couldn't tell.

    This brings up a number of concerns:
    1. Why did ASR not conduct a blind comparative test on the subjective aspects?
    2. Could ASR's conclusion of the distortion on the HD650 specific to the Jot been a result of confirmation bias based on a over-zealous reading of the amps distortion performance.
    3. Could ASR bias against the manufacturer of the amp have caused laziness and lack of thoroughness, with too quick a judgement on subjective performance?
     
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  10. Josh83

    Josh83 Friend

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    Amir got so much criticism over the SVS review that it got spun off into another thread. In the process, Sean Olive revealed that Amir wouldn’t meet Harman’s How to Listen score requirement to become one of the company’s trained listeners. Amir responded by talking about how he helped develop WMA and back at MS had the best ears in the place (or something), meaning he was one of only a few hundred (in his estimate) legit professional listeners in the world and therefore couldn’t be questioned by internet peons.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    As a follow-up, in order to achieve the above SPL with the HD650 with the volume knob cranked to the 0300, the voltage required is this 2.628Vrms

    voltage.jpg

    Making some rough calculations, assuming a 300-ohm load, we are talking approximately 0.022W or 22mW of power. Lets look how the Jot performs per ASR's own power plot at 300-ohms. It happens to be in the sweet spot of Jotunheim's power curve!

    upload_2020-8-30_19-46-8.png

    So the mystery of this so called distortion from the Jotunheim with the HD650 after the volume knob is turned past 0200 is solved: it never existed. The distortion came from the headphone itself being driven at extremely high levels that would cause permanent hearing damage!

    Note that the Jotunheim was actually one of the first zero dot zero zero zero amps in the first place! Years before anyone else. Though the Jotunheim does eventually get beat by the THX, Topping, SMSL, Geshelli, and Magnius later on, it does seem interesting that the Jotunheim never got credit for how well it actually performed. This is what I meant by "measurements for the sake of measurements" in the post first.
     
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  12. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Don't get me wrong. Audio Science Review is a valuable resource!!! I do hit it from time to time to check up on stuff. I think people make way too much of the ASR vs SBAF thing!

    The problem is when the objective approach gets taken too far as a litmus test. And then at times subjective interpretations from untrained ears, often based on severe bias to the point of ignoring good measurements - see the above post, are allowed to reign free.

    Most consumers won't look at or want to understand the measurements. I know this full well from doing measurements with headphones for ten years now. They will look at the Pink Pather's pose, corresponding thumbs up or thumbs down, or what people like myself ultimately have to say. Measurement stuff is a lot more complex than that!

    My desire is that if ASR wants to take a "science" and objective approach - then they should just stick to that. You can't grade gear by measurements one day, and then decide not to do so another day when it doesn't suite your personal biases, especially when you advertise yourself as the science and objective site.
     
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  13. Senorx12562

    Senorx12562 Case of the mondays

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    ASR's approach to audio reminds me of Consumer Reports. This place is a little more like Car and Driver in the 70's, or British bike mags. The former is suitable for refrigerators and garage door openers, but audio gear? Not so much. Bikes are more akin to audio gear, cars can go either way. Joy is notoriously difficult to measure though, and measurements can't tell me if I am going to find any in a particular piece of gear. And if objectivity were the real goal, ASR would be all graphs and specs. To the extent that they can say anything useful, to be truly objective they should speak for themselves.
     
  14. robot zombie

    robot zombie Friend

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    Some of the comments say some things I'm sure they're not meant to say about... the state of things. People there take SBAF more seriously than I've ever seen SBAF take itself. So nefarious. We're the not-popular group and therefore must be bitter and conniving by simply... putting up some on-the-nose criticisms on our own forum? Some comments from general users on the side? It's no secret there are criticisms of how things get sized-up there. It's not just an 'us' thing. But either way, it's not really a direct attack anyway. Just people on another forum talking amongst each other. If people from here were over there stirring stuff up, I'd get it.

    And the thing is... a few of them *almost* got it with the childish little remarks. They just forgot to read the banner at the top of the page. Ah, who am I kidding? They didn't even look at the page to begin with. It's funny how the default is jealousy for being less popular or whatever, with a conspiratorial flare. Just a bunch of mean ol bullies. It's as if it's not possible for anyone else to genuinely disagree with how things are done there. Is that what the game is supposed to be? Being the bestest, most popularest coven of nerds? A few took it on the chin - I can respect that. Even if they still don't agree, at least their minds are open enough to see there's something there and it's not just gossip to bolster whatever people there think it's supposed to bolster. Others care wayyy too much, for how hard they stress what losers we are. It's... interesting.
     
  15. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Good. I relish personal and emotionally charged attacks against SBAF. (I am generally unaware of these things And really don’t have time to read about them, so I am assuming certain things: the same ol’ same ol’.)

    In the meantime, please support continued SBAF endeavors against misinformation, flawed science, and hidden agendas by donating or signing up on Patreon: https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/donations-to-superbaf.331/

    I’ll continue to make my points cleanly and without resorting to calling people names. You guys feel free to keep it a child-like fun with memes!

    There was a saying on Chang or maybe SBAF early on: We don’t take ourselves seriously, but we take audio seriously. This goes with too objective for subjectivist and too subjective for objectivists; and of course, not too tight and not too loose.
     
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  16. YEEEEGZ

    YEEEEGZ Almost "Made"

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  17. Vtory

    Vtory Audiophile™

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    I largely concur with this view. He is anyhow creating a huge database about relatively affordable gears very quickly. It's one virtue that asr has done laborious repetitive tasks. I believe such data can be better used as a personalized tool once we can completely ignore all the text attached to the result.

    I often test myself whether or to what extent nice-looking measurements are associated with gears I treasure -- the result varying from "somewhat" (mostly in the way @ChaChaRealSmooth argued in another thread) to "not at all", or even to 'negatively correlated'.

    One important assumption here is that (unlike years ago) he does no malicious falsification toward certain manufacturer(s) any more. I'm kinda giving him a benefit of the doubt.

    Nevertheless it's a big headache that his anti-scientific assertions get more and more influential as at face value his strong statements (1) give consumers dramatic catarthesis ("David vs Goliath") even if hugely misleading time to time and (2) lead certain manufacturers to easier developments ("More and more feedback regardless of 'true' loss").
     
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  18. 9suns

    9suns [insert unearned title here]

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    Reading the ASR thread, I find funny how all of them spilled bile and talked lots of non sense, but none adressed the points raised by Marv.

    To get them to admit they're wrong may be harder than squeezing blood from a stone, but this is a nice progress, feels like a victory.
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    It's not convincing the denizens on ASR that they are wrong. Their minds have already been made up. It's showing people who haven't decided or don't yet have a good understanding of measurements a more balanced and nuanced view.*

    Again, I haven't read anything, but I surmise their arguments are based on pathos, appealing to emotions. I refuse to get trapped into that this time. My arguments are based on ethos (responsible use of measurements) and logos (logic). I would think that their reaction is a perfectly understandable one, not any different when religious extremists are presented with evidence and facts that blow away their beliefs.

    I for one welcome the spillage of bile upon me. This is because I am confident of my position and could care less if ten, one hundred, or one thousand people think I am a jealous goober.

    *And it's been working. People are listening with their ears and realizing that there is good sound quality to be found other than this 0.000x stuff, e.g. Topping, SMSL, THX, Magnius/Heresy, etc. The era of these extreme high SINAD chip amps is about to be over. They did well for a while, but the fad is over. Just look at Amazon stock and Drop sales (lack thereof). I'm just hammering the nails in the coffin.
     
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  20. Lyander

    Lyander Official SBAF Equitable Empathizer

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    From what I can see SBAF has gained a reputation for precipitating drama and picking fights with Amir's posse, and that reputation is now long-eatablished. While I do disagree with some of the politics voiced here (inasmuch as I respect the people who voice those opinions cuz... we're all ostensibly humans) and see how the forum might be perceived as hateful, it seems to me that SBAF now is a lot kinder than the SBAF of 2016/2017 when I was still lurking/just signing up; the only time I see people properly lose their tempers are with accounts that appear to be deliberate trolls (edit: or remarkably dense and/or arrogant individuals).

    I've avoided posting here since I don't trust myself to tell bjork-ed measurements from properly-conducted ones with reasonable accuracy yet, but at least insofar as insight on inter-forum optics goes it seems that everyone's pretty much dug in their trenches and digging deep divots into their seats using the sticks up their asses. I just find it reassuring that there are now those willing to consider the "middle stance" of considering skilled subjective impressions alongside credible measurements (and vise-versa).

    Shill-fi snakeoil has done a lot of damage, itself birthing the movement of hyperpartisan objectivism. That being the case it's no surprise at all that a large contingent of people swung well the other way in recoil— this is a response often seen in many societal facets (as @YMO noted in a Zoom chat some time ago, something about riots in New York during the mid-90s?). The challenge now then is to keep from overcompensating and veering wildly off-course.

    But shit what's my opinion worth? I heard an obscenely pronounced difference using aftermarket headphone cables with my main cans out of an unfamiliar upstream :p
     
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