Magni 3+ and Magni 3 Heresy released

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by redrich2000, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Not to be Krampus on Christmas' Eve and punishing Schiit for misbehaving by releasing such a turd, but I'm still not convinced of downplaying the influence ASR has permeated in other online audio communities.

    If the Heresy is so terrible, why is Schiit selling it? Why go through all the trouble designing and manufacturing it? I mean you guys make it sound like a segment of the market who buys well measured gear, especially gear recommended by some moronic dork with a super expensive anal-yzer, is so infinitesimal. But is that truly the case? Why not just stick a middle finger up to such a supposedly small group and just be more focused on making better sounding amps.

    Yeah you can say "But Rob, Schiit's playing them like a fiddle, swindling those measurement chart freaks" but that would suggest Jason is a fraudster. You have a Schiit employee over on ASR now who has extended an olive branch to Amir and attempting to salvage their reputation among them. It doesn't look like its in bad faith. He also personally sent Amir both the 3+ and Heresy for review (committed to other future products as well), which was a smart business move because it prevents Amir from taking in broken Schiit amps from random members which dissuade folks buying from Schiit.

    And that leads me to think ASR/Reddit dummies have hurt their bottom line. I've been on other non-audio related forums, and I can't tell you how many times I see some random Porker drop an ASR link to some measurement review by Zune-failure Amir. You don't think that the hack jobs Amir has done on the Yggdrasil and various other Schiit products hasn't put a dent in their potential sales? Soliloqueen was right when she said "The fact that they have a business has finally started setting in for them...I look forward to seeing the new products they introduce now that they've realized what business they're actually in." but for all the wrong reasons. Personally I love the crotchety Moffat "don't give a f**k what you think" attitude that Schiit has been sorta known for. They gave the impression of drawing the line in the sand of what is acceptable and what's not. It upsets the sensibilities of our times but it carves out a particular niche. Yep that attitude is certainly "anti-business", does make one hostile to any sort of criticism or taking in feedback to improve products. You are doing what want, not having to cater to the demands of the market but at the end of the day it's still a business, and you gotta make money somewhere. I just see Schiit trying to have one finger in too many pies by trying to appeal to everyone and soon enough ain't nobody gonna be happy, as monacelli pointed out earlier.

    And Schiit already has too many products. Some of them are confusing if looking as a regular customer. Their recent releases have been ho-hum or outright disasters. It's like the customers are doing free quality control for Schiit, look at the Sol release. Yeah Schiit tackled their customer service problems awhile back, but maybe it's time for them to review their lack of quality assurance next year. That shit is essential if your goal is to corner every segment in the value audio market. Besides when was the last Schiit product that has generated a lot of hype? The Yggdrasil? Ragnarok 2 is supposed to be their statement amplifier but seems little fanfare around it. I sure hope this little POS Atom competitor ain't the only thing generating any sort of real buzz for them.

    Anyway I'm getting off track and should stop talking outta my ass. From my limited perspective, it just looks like the ASR disinformation has sorta spread like wildfire and has finally caught up to hurting Schiit's business in a real way.

    And Jason if you are reading this, I don't mean any disrespect. You obviously have a lot of pride in what you do and your products. I've always appreciated your involvement here and on HF. I love my Vidars, Mjolnir 2, SYS, and Gungnir. Jesus what I've scaled down to now with HD650, I'm a total SBAF meme. I've been buying your Schiit since you guys were selling out of a garage. I will continue to buy your stuff if it sounds good and doesn't explode on me, or at least don't make DACs that shock me on contact (*cough*"that's normal" - former Microsoft exec dipshit*cough*). But I care more about being honest than shilling, even if I am wrong about all of the above.
     
  2. Ash1412

    Ash1412 Friend

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    I don't think its fraud unless the product is defective or worse in any metric its destined audience (THD cucks) can appreciate versus the competition. The Heresy vs Atom thread shows just how much more the Heresy provides in terms of build quality and output power for the same price and measured performance. You can call it a betrayal of their own beliefs but hey, thats kind of built into the name. Don't forget that it took them a lot of work to bring the Magni 3+ down to the same price to incentivise people to try both.

    As for ASR, yes they might pose a problem for Schiit. Might. You don't exactly know how these people are affecting Schiit sales, and how would one know without testing out the waters. Which is kind of the point of the thunderdome thing, to gauge peoples interests+reaction by letting them try equivalent options out. By interest, I mean how many people opted for buying both and doing A/B versus buying one straight up from how it looks, how it measures etc...By reaction, I mean how many people bought both and returned the Heresy because they were convinced subjectively, cause I think we also forget that to the majority of people (modern metric-obsessed people), our claims still seem like snakeoil, and Marv has himself said that if one is only listening to Kpop, gaming, etc...it wouldn't matter. Not that it can't be improved, I'd go so far as to make the first 1000 pairs of amps have free returns versus the 250 they settled on, but its a very decent strategic play regardless. But considering the ever-changing dynamics in the in-betweener forums like reddit ( which I'd argue is more representative of newcomers than any other ), where some are dipping their toes into the subjective pond, I wouldn't call it a reactive play but a preemptive scouting play to see what the trend actually is.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
  3. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    Geez re-reading my post I added too much rum in my eggnog on Xmas Eve. I'll get back to you later after I take some Tylenol for this nasty headache.

    @monacelli alright point out where I'm a shithead please.
     
  4. monacelli

    monacelli Friend

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    I like this part. You seem like a good dude, so no disrespect intended by the dislike. I'm just not a fan of speculative posts about what is or isn't going on with anyone's business from people who have zero insight into company decision making/operations. I might be alone in this, but I think it would be rad if we could dial back the spotlight on ASR. It was initially a fruitful discussion, but feels like it's devolving into speculative shitposting. Basically I'm hoping we can circle this thread back around to its original purpose and topic (at some point).
     
  5. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    You're right. I just have a huge axe to grind against that site. My fault, didn't mean to stir up shit with my crap post.
     
  6. RedFuneral

    RedFuneral Facebook Friend

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    It's not about hurting a specific company's sales but the ecosystem at large. What we're seeing is a marketing campaign against the hobby (electronics, >$100)

    The Heresy was inevitable by the fact Schiit know their marketing; regardless of current sales I think they understand the effect of a chilled market. It's especially scary in audio where components don't obsolete & aren't likely to break down: options are to bring in new business or churn out new models to keep old customers spending.

    In short going to war is more interesting than 'rapid pace product development cycles' & giving new dudes Schiit is more interesting than 'email newsletters to reenforce customer loyalty & name recognition.' What else could we expect?

    Edit: Sorry for the continued offtopic, might be worth a threadsplit?
     
  7. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    Depending on how you measure hype, Aegir as Stereophile Class A for $800 is pretty insane.
     
  8. elmoe

    elmoe Friend

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    Even the Vidar seems to have sold quite well, I've seen plenty of people discussing it all over.
     
  9. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Just a couple of comments:

    1. I read pretty much everything, though I don't always comment.
    2. There have been a number of surprising runaway successes this year alone (Aegir, Freya+, Hel), and some slower-burn stuff that is really starting to take off now (Vidar, Ragnarok 2, Bifrost 2), in addition to stuff we knew would go well (Asgard 3, Magnis).
    3. We certainly don't use our customers for QC, I have gone into the insane testing that every single one of our products goes through. Sol is an exception. It may not return. If that happens, everyone gets a 100% refund, the only people we screwed are ourselves. We're still working on it, we'll see how it goes. But maybe the market doesn't need this product.
    4. I don't think you need to worry about us getting boring and conservative. Next year is full boat wacky. Well, it gets full boat wacky. It starts kinda boring. Well, except maybe Jotunheim R, which is completely bonkers. But the bottom line is that Thunderdomes have given us a huge blunt tool with which to bludgeon real data out of "what-ifs," so you'll see us taking more chances, rather than less. I really like the idea of a Magni Piety edition (Specs: Adequate), but we'll see. That may be too much confusion. Unless it's an actual special edition limited run product. But suffice to say, it ain't gonna be boring next year.

    Happy new year, everyone!
     
  10. dematted

    dematted Friend

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    This is not going to be good for my wallet...
     
  11. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    An unfortunate problem with "full boat crazy" is that it frequently means (for us) "kinda sorta pricey." Though one product we are working on, while pricey to us, is 1/40th the cost of a similar product that uses similar parts from the uber high end.

    But I'm talking too much. I'll shut up now.
     
  12. crenca

    crenca Friend

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    Just do what Payless did with "Palessi" and laugh all the way to the bank.
     
  13. Soups

    Soups Sadomasochistic cat

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    Love how the "Thunderdomes" don't see losses from "unsuccessful" products as failures, but rather as investments in the future success of other products. Hope y'all can continue to make these hedged bets and win... because it usually means customers win as well. I like "Bat Schiit Crazy in 2020!"
     
  14. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    It's a different way of looking at things.

    And I think that's a theme. Time to re-examine everything. The world has changed. Not just the audio world. The amount of change just this year is staggering. I don't think the old way of "let's research/focus group/test/launch a product and bet on it for 1/2/5/10 years" is the way to go anymore. The Reality Distortion Field only goes so far when you have literally everyone looking at a product, rather than your pet, paid press.

    Blind listening takes away the internal "my baby is best" factor (Bifrost 2 almost didn't launch before an internal blind test) and Thunderdomes take away the external "loudest voice" factor.

    Both are foundational for us for 2020.
     
  15. yotacowboy

    yotacowboy McRibs Kind of Guy

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    That'd be an interesting Chapter.
     
  16. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Less interesting than you think.

    It turns out that some of our staff probably had the products confused, because when we blinded the results, Bifrost 2 was the strong winner. Before that, there was some internal dissent that Bifrost Multibit was better.

    I said that this didn't make any sense due to the beta feedback, and, after arguing for a while, I said, "Well, let's set up a blind test," where several of us participated (including me). The difference was so profound that I remember thinking, "Oh gawd, I hope the crappy one isn't Bifrost 2." Turns out it wasn't. so all was well.

    Thanks for indulging the thread derail. It's helping me sum up the year-in-review chapter, and cement Thunderdomes and blind listening as key things for next year.
     
  17. DigMe

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    My best guess: Schiit will release an electric truck starting at $1000.
     
  18. NationOfLaws

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    Man, that’d be too bad. I was waiting on the wider release to buy a new table. I get it, though.
     
  19. bboris77

    bboris77 Friend

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    So, after much deliberation, I have decided to return the Heresy and keep the Magni 3+. I took my time (3 weeks) since I was a part of the introductory trial. Throughout this period, I simply kept going back to the Magni 3+. I almost kept the Heresy since it is a very clean and precise sounding amp. However, I found its sound signature very similar to the Atom which I also sold - very 2-dimensional and lean. Ultimately, I realized that it would just be gathering dust so I decided to ship it back. I just could not find anything that the Heresy did better compared to the Magni 3+.

    I have no idea what kind of dark magic Jason used to make the Magni 3+, but it is a masterpiece and an amazing deal. It is my favourite Schiit amplifier of all time and I have owned the Lyr 3 and the Valhalla 2 which are also great amps. The Magni 3+ is the first solid state amp I have tried that manages to create a sense of depth that is comparable to a tube amp.

    In conclusion, it appears that discrete amps are still superior to op-amps. I have a sneaking suspicion that this is exactly what Jason set out to prove. It is also quite clear that conventional measurements should be used just as a guide and not gospel. How else can one explain that an amp that objectively measures worse sounds significantly better than the amp that appears to be superior to it on paper?
     
  20. Zampotech

    Zampotech Friend

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    An amplifier with such conditions can actually be made. But its power consumption will be about 25-40 watts. That is, it will be impossible to place it in the case of the dimensions of the Magni 3+ .

    If my memory does not change me, it will be 5 MOSFET + 2 bipolar transistors + 1 OP-AMP in the tracking current source.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020

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