Magni 3+ and Magni 3 Heresy released

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by redrich2000, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Raimei Templar

    Raimei Templar Almost "Made"

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    I was irritated by that line as well given that he didnt point out just how complete dogshit garbage the pot on the SP200 is. To his credit he did review a 2nd one that established that they changed the pot but he didnt emphasize just how bad the change was. SP200s volume pot is bad enough that its a major issue IMO and I didnt like that he downplayed it nor that he wasnt more irritated that they changed the pot to a worse one from the review unit.

    To be fair the Magnis volume pot has always been a weak point but did seem a little petty as its not something he usually does more than comment on.

    Maybe a unpopular opinion here but I think Amir has been very good for Schiit. They took a lot of heat but it seems like it caused them to push their designs to the next level. Now Schiit has put out amps that sound great subjectively and measure spectacularly. That is great stuff for consumers.

    I have gained a lot of respect for Jason because of how well he has taken the critiques he has gotten from the community at large (not just Amir), he has gone above and beyond to deliver the best products possible. Taking critiques and using them to deliver better products is just not something we see enough of nowadays. Cant wait to see what they come out with next!
     
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  2. Poleepkwa

    Poleepkwa Friend

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    I have to say that I really like what Schiit has done here!
    Schiit has shown that they too can do engineering for measurements (and excel at it).
    I think most beginners will go for the Heresy, more experienced listeners for the 3+.
    Main point is they can buy a Schiit product, no matter which religion they subscribe too. I predict we will continue to see the clear distinction in the Schiits product line:chip/discrete across the DACS and SS amps, with an even more distinct market segmentation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  3. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    I know we don't want to complain about other bars, but since the Heresy is clearly marketed towards the "objectivist" idiots, I think it's apropos to bring up what ASR/Reddit are saying. And oh gawd how does anyone take that dude Amir seriously? Look at what he put in that review of the Heresy and 3+:

    IOW "you can trust everything I say, don't believe anyone who tells you otherwise." This is about as cult-like as it gets.

    "The two amps are the same." yeah, my ass.

    Frankly I hope people buy both amps and draw their own conclusions based on their ears. One thing for sure is the comparison between the two should reveal how full of shit Amir is. But then you don't really need to do a comparison to figure that out.

    And these Reddit comments. SBAF is totally in their heads LOL!:


    and

    Link

    Amir has been vindicated, he is a hero!!!!

    And Jason and co will be laughing all the way to the bank.

    I'm all for giving customers more choices but I don't like it gives a little credibility to the knuckledraggers on ASR. "See measurements do matter!!" Or people who post dumb shit like this:

    Oy vey, that's enough internet for today.

    BTW good to see Schiit is sending Amir their products directly without him receiving broken/OOP used products from their members. Curbs some of the disinformation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  4. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    The market demand will decide what gets to be made. Schiit already said they would evaluate whether they will keep Magni 3+, Heresy or both in their product line. If there is a large enough demand for an ASR-like measurement fetishist amp, then it simply makes sense Schiit exploits that and makes a perfectly reasonable product at great price that will surely sell well.

    All other things aside, I don't think you or anyone here should take all those internet keyboard warriors serious. ASR/Reddit will be ASR/Reddit, SBAF will be SBAF. Who cares about what goes on on the other side..

    And in the end Schiit wins either way. Well played.
     
  5. RobS

    RobS RobS? More like RobDiarrhea.

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    But its that "large enough demand", if true, is concerning. It shows how influential that disinformation has been spread and it should be fought vigorously IMO. I get it, you're not going to convince the measurement dogmatists, but I hope that customer demand does not set the bar for all future products. That's my concern. This dominant way of "thinking" will push aside true audiophile products to where they can become so niche to be unobtainable due to price. I'm not saying the market is going to change overnight, but as an audio enthusiast I'm worried for the future. Really the whole lemming "Reddit-style" group think, obsession with numbers as if it is some objective criteria to evaluate any product goes beyond just the audio world. I've seen this approach in different product groups as well.

    Sure, but I only take them serious to the degree they continue to spread hearsay. A lot of the Schiit haters are never going to buy one of their products, even the Heresy. They will come up with the lousiest reasons why they won't buy it, hell they are already doing it now.
     
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  6. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    I am really looking forward to see the outcome of this (Schiit Thunderdome 2), especially now that impressions from various sites are coming out.

    What we've got here?
    1) Modern conventional design with vanishingly low distortion and attention-grabbing (gaming?) looks = Magni Heresy
    2) Exotic discrete design with still-excellent measurements and decent (mature?) looks = Magni 3+

    Without further ado, my bet is on Heresy. Some food for thought:
    • The price bracket itself kind of dictates the primary target = starting audiophiles, "objective" audiophiles, cheap-ass audiophiles, or similar. These people are mostly looking into the safest, most silent, most universal choice. If undecided, they tend to go for...
    • ...the looks. Heresy is black. And many will also be won over by the contrasting red.
    • It already seems to have a seal of approval from sites like ASR or even Reddit. I wouldnt understate their influence, no matter what you think about them.
    Sonically, Magni 3+ might end up being the preferred choice by the more experienced audiophiles. But again, 99USD is not exactly their territory by definition. And, based on what I've gathered, JDS Labs Atom (akin to Heresy) was preferred over original Magni 3 (akin to 3+) by quite a few folks sonically. Therefore, again, interested to see which of the two better aligns with the tastes of global audiophile community in 2019/2020.

    Which of the two I would opt for? Asgard 3, since small potentiometers suck. ;)
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  7. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    To be clear, the complaint about volume knob placement was about how close it is to the headphone jack, which allegedly makes it hard to turn. Which, uh, I have a Magni next to my bed, and fiddle with the knob while I'm lying there half-asleep, and have never found it to be any kind of a challenge whatsoever. It's the most imaginary complaint ever.
     
  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Since both Heresy and Magni 3+ have 1kHz distortion below audibility, did Amir do any kind of blind test listening?
     
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  9. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    I thought this was the funniest part of the review:

    "The volume control on both is rather close to the 1/4 headphone jack. As such, even though I have thinner fingers, I could not comfortably change the volume control."

    Are you trying to wedge all 5 digits around the pot, till you hit the case, and turning with your full fist?

    I can almost guarantee that I have, subjectively and objectively, larger hands than him, and have never once considered, "Oh, I can't comfortably change the volume control on this."

    Well, I guess it's true what they say about men with small hands. Something something big knobs?
     
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    He mentions this in his review:

    "Distortion products are around -135 dB, which is about 20 dB better than we need for absolute transparency!"

    Is there any evidence that -115dB is where we start getting into inaudibility, or the limits of the best recordings ever made? Where is this value coming from? What is "absolute transparency"? Not to mention, what does this mean for varying levels of output, rather than what I believe is a max volume, 1KHz tone? (He provides the former, but with less/different commentary.)

    Unfortunately for the Magni 3+, its two main harmonic distortion components sit around -105dB and -109dB. Therefore, I cannot recommend it.
     
  11. Baten

    Baten Friend

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    Don't think he did, nope.

    Aww :oops::rolleyes:
     
  12. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    "Both amplifiers provided incredible amount of drive, producing stellar response in the form of bass, detail and dynamic range. I tried with a few tracks to tell the two amps apart but I could not. In more careful ABX scenario where I can focus on specific segments I might do better. But in real-time testing, the two amps are the same. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise!"

    Which is to say, he didn't really give it a serious try, just did a quick listen to a few tracks, didn't hear anything grossly different, and called it a day.
     
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  13. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    I gotta defend Magni's potentiometer here, but you're right.

    I mean, we've done everything we can to make a good small pot. We went to Alps (the best affordable potentiometer manufacturer, a Japanese company.) We gave them a custom spec, with the best audio taper I've ever seen on a pot (10A, specifically, not 15A). We order them directly from Alps, so there's no possibility of counterfeit parts. And we have them sorted for matching at low levels. So it's really, really, really the best you can do in a 9mm potentiometer.

    That said, just try any Alps RK27 (27mm) versus any 9mm pot (RK27 is what we use in Asgard 3 and above). They are wayyyyyyyyyy better (and yet we still get our own custom spec on top of that.) The problem is that they are like 10x more expensive. And they don't fit in the Magni chassis. So there you go.

    My evil twin snickers and thinks, "What can you do with $200 on a op-amp based amp? How about something like THX at half the price, and with an RK27 potentiometer?" But that's just being mean, right?

    Enough potentiometer talk. Early results show Magni 3+ and Heresy selling similarly, so I expect we'll continue making both. But we'll see what happens when the closeout Magni 3s run out. I think that's set to happen any second.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    The problem is that this opinion is based on misinformation.

    Schiit hasn't done anything different at all in terms of how they design their gear other than make one, one single product that caters to the 1kHz @2Vrms SINAD crowd.

    The only other reactive thing they've done is post AP measurements to ensure Amir doesn't bork his measurements.

    Schiit has actually implemented rolling changes to their lineup that sounded better and measured worse.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  15. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Once I heard about the Heresy, and before ASR reviewed it, I meant to comment about how sites like Reddit and ASR were going to pat themselves on the back. "ASR is finally getting to Schiit. They're holding them accountable and making them design good products! We are winning, guys!"

    Because of that, I'm not totally surprised that such responses have come out as such. But part of me is still surprised...Though some of the responses are so, hm, odd, that I can't tell if it's satire or not.

    It is truly incredible how dense people like this are.

    Hey, if you're reading this, let me spell it out for you. Schiit's making fun of you with this product. Maybe not in a totally direct sense, but you have to know how to read between the lines.

    But, hey, if it sells to an audience, kind of a win regardless of if it's a joke, no?
     
  16. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    How can this statement be scientific if it isn't even logical?

    I Amir cannot tell the difference in real-time listening => No one else can tell the difference.​

    How does Amir know what other people can or cannot do without first conducting experiments to prove that if Amir cannot tell the difference, then all other humans cannot tell the difference?
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  17. crazychile

    crazychile Eastern Iowa's Spiciest Pepper

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    While I like that Schiit created the Heresy to prove that they can make great measuring gear, I'll go out on a limb and predict that customer service nitpicks may increase on this product over other models due to the kind of customer it may cater to. I remember Jason mentioning in Schiit Happened a few years ago that sometimes certain customers just aren't worth the hassle.
     
  18. atomicbob

    atomicbob dScope Yoda

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    I am preparing a post on dynamic range, threshold of audibility, measurements vs. real world including real world limitations such as how the Human Auditory System work, critical bands of the basilar membrane and room noise. Will include example wave files for readers to evaluate for themselves. This is rather extensive data collection and presentation so posting will not be for another few days. Has been in the works for last two weeks.

    Hey, you are spoiling the joke that those worshiping measurements to exclusion of all other data input (especially listening evaluations) are being played.

    For those that may not know, there is a reason companies such as Harmon International, PBS, Schiit, etc. take great pains to incorporate both measurements and listening evaluations into their designs. Harman's multi-channel listening lab is impressive:
    http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2010/07/harman-kardons-quest-to-standardise.html
     
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  19. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    Ok, so I don't read ASR aside from the random stumble, but surely it can't be as conceited as all the cherry picked quotes make it out to be? That's just some of the fanboys right?

    I mean, what's more likely here...

    a) That one guy with some measuring gear was able to bully an audio company who prides itself on bucking trends
    -or-
    b) This conversation happening at Schiit:
    schiithead1: Hey there's this big potential customer base/demographic who really really likes numbers
    schiithead2: oh yeah? what's their latest craze?
    schiithead1: there were a couple around $400, a new one under $300, lotsa zeroes in their measurements
    schiithead2: hmm, I could work with that, maybe around $200
    schiithead1: oh and they have a pet amp at $99
    schiithead2: well $%&# you I'll do it at $99 then
    schiithead1: that wasn't a challenge
    schiithead2: $%&# you I'm bored

    ... and then a month later you get the Heresy.
     
  20. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    Looking forward to that post!

    And yeah, our listening lab isn't as impressive as Harman, but we do a ton of blind testing these days. And measurements. And sometimes the listening tracks the measurements. And sometimes it doesn't.
     

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