Magni 3+ and Magni 3 Heresy released

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by redrich2000, Nov 29, 2019.

  1. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    How do you know other humans can actually hear a difference, if Amir is not the one running the tests to verify validity? And who can we put in place to verify that Amir is running the tests correctly, and that goalposts remain unmoved based on results? And to verify that person? I would also like a sample size of 1,000 blind test results.

    Now, I do genuinely have to assume, if we can bias ourselves into thinking we hear differences that aren't actually there, can we not bias ourselves into not hearing differences that are there? (If we were to ignore personal training, sensitivity, etc.)
     
  2. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Why? Amir already solved all our problems with his AP doodad. Haven't you seen his graphs? Just relax and take comfort that the pros already have it under control.
     
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  3. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    All hail Pope Amir, the infallible.

    Audio ISIL... geez.
     
  4. mkozlows

    mkozlows Friend

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    For real, though, the impact of ASR on Reddit (and into the casualsphere more generally) has been enormous. I don't have Schiit's numbers and I have no idea what kind of bottom-line sales impact they did or didn't see, but for a while now, if you met a random headphone enthusiast at work or at a social event, they were more likely than not to refer knowingly to Schiit as a joke company that makes terrible scam products.

    It looks like the Heresy has been extraordinarily successful in turning that narrative around, even getting a more enthusiastic reception on ASR than I would have expected; if it never sold another unit in its lifetime, it probably would have been making just as a marketing effort to change the message that people get about Schiit.
     
  5. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Yes. But upon deeper reflection, maybe this was to be expected because the Heresy fit within their religious dogma, i.e.

    SINAD for 1kHz at 2Vrms*
    (*or whatever voltage Amir decides to use that day)

    Now if Amir had set their dogma to SINAD at 1kHz at 0.5Vrms (which BTW, is a much more realistic level for most headphones), the 3+ would have been much closer.

    Really, it's like the Taliban. You grow your beard out and praise God in a certain way, and you are fine. It's not hard to meet those requirements if you want to adhere to them. Schiit got their lashings, and they've now put on the beard and gave praise to their holy SINAD.

    ASR is nothing more than Audio Taliban or Audio ISIL.

    Repeat after me: There is no god but SINAD. There is no god but SINAD. There is no god but SINAD.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
  6. Magnetostatic_Tubephile

    Magnetostatic_Tubephile Friend

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    But how do you avoid what happened with Magni 2 and Magni 2 Uber?

    Citing yourself from Head-Fi:

    If you gave Alex (our Director of Operations) his wish, it would always be for less products and less options. We already have a broad product line. When you start throwing in variations like Ubers and Multibits and black chassis and B-stock, it can be overwhelming. Splitting the Magni into Magni 2 and Magni 2 Uber gave Alex a bit of a headache, because now he had to forecast the demand for both products and keep both in stock. He also had B-stock variations on two products, and the possibility of black chassis popping up from time to time. That’s a heck of a lot of variations to deal with. If there could be a single Magni 3, Alex would be very happy.

    Similarly, Nick had to deal with the questions. “Which should I get? Magni 2 or Uber?” Even though we tried to make it as clear as possible on the website, and even though some potential customers had a clear need for Uber (like, if they had powered monitors and headphones), we’d still get asked this question all the time. Again, if Nick had a single Magni 3 to recommend, then his life would be a lot easier.
     
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  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I'd give the folks on Reddit some credit. Many are coming around and we are no longer seeing 85% of the posts saying "Schiit is the devil" or that "they make poorly engineered products." We are starting to read more sensible posts along the lines that they measure way way good to even matter. Considering how SBAF is a closed community that tends to discourage newcomers from speaking, we've already heard way too many instances of "I bought a D30 on ASR recommendation, but now after more experience, I realize it sounds like dull."

    Things are coming around. @Serious had a good point on why we were even bothering talking about ASR. In a way, he's right. We don't need to bother because this stuff always gets sorted out in time, like nwavguy before Amir, and Doug Self before nwavguy. Over time, people are going to get sick of measurements of yet another ChiFi (or wannabe JDS) chip amp with 114db SINAD.

    I do feel duty bound to apply the pressure against ASR's spreading of misinformation (never mind the defamation tactics against a certain company), especially at this time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  8. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    They are a slightly bigger company with more employees and a lot more sophisticated now. Maybe Jason can write another chapter on how they've gotten more sophisticated over time.

    As far as recommending to customers 3+ or Heresy, that's easy now. Schiit pulled off a coup and had two sites that hated each other review these amps before or shortly after they got released. Their customer service and sales people can easily refer potential customers to these resources.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  9. Phantaminum

    Phantaminum Friend

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    There had to be a discussion concerning the “Measurements is god” narrative that was being regurgitated by everyone at certain points.

    You guys did good by backing up your statements with facts, measurements, and experience. This forum can at times be harsh to newbies but this is the one place you can find great information without having to wade through a sea of mud (Head-Fi).

    I can see the changes now that Reddit /Headphones has come back to a semblance of normalcy in discussions when before it was Amir sycophants crying out, “Topping A30/D30 is all you need and the rest are fools for spending a dollar more”. They‘ve never heard another amp and took the word as gospel. I never stopped visiting a forum until every other thread was about ASR and measurements (which has its place).
     
  10. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    I made a post about Schiit on ASR (my first and likely only post there):

    I've been following Schiit for years and have either owned or loaned a great deal of their products, and they're pretty good in general, but for a long time, I don't think they were customer-centric. They don't design the crazy shit they design for people to buy, in my opinion. They do it because it's fun. They enjoy inventing ridiculous technologies and evaluating their pros and cons. Selling the results seemed almost like a fun bonus for most of their history. It's nice and all when someone does things because they're passionate about them, but for a long time that passion led them to respond to criticisms of their products as artists would respond to criticism of their art, rather than as a business should respond to the criticisms of their customers, and I think that's where they got lost for a while. This new product line, new level of engagement and new focus on transparency reflects a shift a little bit away from doing it for fun towards product focus. The fact that they have a business has finally started setting in for them. I think that's a good thing. I look forward to seeing the new products they introduce now that they've realized what business they're actually in.

    I think this is a pretty fair assessment of Schiit's attitude and history from my perspective. I already had a lot of respect for what they do as engineers, in the sense of solidarity as a fellow engineer, and now I have even more respect for what they do as a company.
     
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  11. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    He's got an ok point about the reliability of the volume pot. I've had similar issues myself, but eh, at $99, what are you going to do, really? There are certain corners you have to cut on an entry-level amp that, mind you, is better than a lot of TOTL amps. We're living in a golden age of accessible audio, and there are some parts you just can't make cheap.

    Edit:
    I would buy a Magni with a good pot for $120 in a heartbeat
     
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  12. rlow

    rlow A happy woofer

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    So many examples of horseshit in those statements, I’m not going to bother picking it apart. It’s nice to look at something from the outside and pass judgement. Clearly you haven’t followed them that closely, because if you did you wouldn’t come to these conclusions - and if you do, you have created you own narrative here and/or drank the ASR kool-aid. This last line takes the cake:

    They’re in the business of making great sounding products, in the US, that the average person can actually afford. And that’s what they’ve been doing all along.

    Edit: While I don’t necessarily agree with everything said, the context of this was misinterpreted on my end (as being related to the “better measuring” Magni Heresy and the recent ASR review being an example of Schiit becoming more “customer centric”) which was cleared up a bit further in the thread. Guess I’m actually the one who stepped in horseshit!
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2019
  13. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    I've been following for a very long time. Schiit is full of people that I love and respect a lot, but they have had some issues with lack of self-awareness that they very quickly solved, through their own personal growth, to the benefit of everyone, and they remain one of my favorite audio companies. I have a profound level of admiration for them. I am not passing judgment. I am the furthest possible thing from passing judgment.
     
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  14. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I actually think @Soliloqueen's assessment is fair. The Schiit today is different from Schiit a year ago, and a year before that. It's too easy for us to forget that their customer service could be described as subpar. Catching up to these issues is a good problem to have. Jason's run businesses before, but not with so many customers, and an insane product line. I've seen full well the human aspects of this. And at times, I've been the cause of white hairs, e.g. my bitching about Sol.
     
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  15. allegro

    allegro Friend

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    I am curious, I checked Mouser and there does not seem to be a uber good, better 9 mm pot than what Schiit is already using. Seems to be a limitation of smaller form factor pots. Am I missing something?

    Edit: changed 7 mm to correct 9 mm sorry for mistype
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  16. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    I would buy it in a bigger box :p

    Jokes aside, That's the point! you can't do it in that form factor for $99, so it's fine. I mean, he's right, but what can be done about it?
     
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  17. Soliloqueen

    Soliloqueen Friend

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    In my opinion, to say that they didn't have these problems is to ignore the effort they've put into improving and to erase their success. I understand your issue @rlow . They've been attacked on all sides for a long time, often very unfairly, and when someone in your community goes through something like that, it's natural to jump to their defense, but we're all Friends here (literally!). I didn't mean to offend, and I'm sorry.

    Edit:
    Sorry, I'm used to auto-merging double posts...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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  18. schiit

    schiit SchiitHead

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    We've spent a ton of time obsessing about pots here, and here's what you can do:

    1. Small potentiometer. This is where we're at. Ours is highly optimized, sorted, and a custom design. It's a decent solution at this price point, and has been reliable (the scratchiness problem really was less the pot and more a thing with bias current, which we've dealt with.)

    2. Large potentiometer. These get tricky. Go to a 12mm pot? Probably concentric. Tracking may be worse. Same for 14mm. 16mm is open-frame (never liked that) or motorized concentric. The motorized concentric ones aren't bad, but they are the same price as a 27mm, which is really good. But not feasible at this price point.

    3. Volume control IC. You can vary volume electronically. The cheap volume control ICs may kinda-sorta fit at this price point. Unfortunately, there go your great measurements! Oops. Even the best of these products don't measure in the range of Heresy. The good ones are also pricey, and usually require a microprocessor to run. So pick your poison: compromised measurements or not feasible at this price point.

    4. Relay ladder. This is getting above the cost of a good 27mm potentiometer, but it will have perfect tracking all the way up and down. But it's also large, and requires a microprocessor to run. You also need a motorized pot or screen so you know what it's set at. Again, not feasible at this price point.

    So what do you do? You stick with #1. Or maybe form an industry coalition to go to Alps and have them design us a good, affordable, sealed 16mm pot...but they may not pay attention even to a whole bunch of high end guys coming at them.
     
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  19. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    LOL. I actually spoke to Jason about this. Putting the Magni 3+ in a bigger box. Dual mono with active grounds to kill the AC mains noise. Maybe with VU meters and a crossfeed circuit with EQ adjust switches for the crossfeed. A nice front plate too.

    I forgot: a bigger knob. Bigger pot really isn't necessary. Bigger knob for fine tuning volume levels and so I can adjust voltage down to 0.001 for level matching for blind tests.

    I'd pay a good premium for this.
     
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  20. Lyander

    Lyander Too sensitive for SBAF

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    You're worrying about having offended @rlow over statements about a brand? And I thought I was the cripplingly nice one, haha.

    I nearly disagreed with your post too for the latter bits but left it well alone because I couldn't exactly rebut that a lot of what Schiit does seems to be for the fun of it (Multibit DACs and discrete amp designs in an age where that's all basically antiquated tech, the nerve!). That's part of what I love about them TBH, since I'm a sucker for Rube Goldbergs and needlessly artsy shit— make no mistake I do think that there's as much art to designing electronics as there is in lacquering or painting— but can see why it'd get on some people's nerves or come across as being pricey for the sake of being pricey.

    Relatively speaking of course, since at least for US customers these are/(appear to be) excellent value items.

    Exactingly precise potentiometers? VU meters??? Hell. Yes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2019
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