Regarding rare magnets, premium tweeters, and other exotica...

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by OJneg, Aug 24, 2016.

  1. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    I've been on a kick researching the wide world of loudspeaker technology, so I will be stream of consciousness mtoc-posting and people can respond and pontificate as they please. A lot of good stuff on diyaudio and the other annals of the internet

    For starters:

    klipsh_onplasma.png

    That's from Paul Klipsch BTW
     
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  2. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    Interesting, ive been interested in exotic speaker tech, ill be watching this thread
     
  3. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    From Post #6 in this thread:

    http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/134465-what-draw-older-alnico-drivers.html#post1678640

    The more I read about Alnico magnets the more skeptical I get. Most of the Alnico woofers out there that I see are sought after by guitar/bass guys for their inherent colorations. It seems to me that given the poor coercivity, the signal driven through voicecoil creates a force which counteracts the motor's B field and would lead to that compressive and warm quality. Speaking purely from my interpretation of this theoretical model, that would make things less dynamic and more compressed and NOT be particularly good sounding by my interpretation of what a good moving coil sounds like. I get an inkling that the "smooth" quality that proponents testify to is a result of this action, but is nonetheless a sin of commission.

    Could be totally wrong of course, but this argument seems much more convincing than stuff like the diaphragm tension theory (sorry @Marvey I'm still not 100% on board with that one)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  4. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    An unrelated gem from the same thread:

    http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1039/


     
  5. spwath

    spwath Collegiate hijinks master

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    The guy at omega speakers seems to think well of them, and uses alnico magnets in his high end drivers.
     
  6. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    All the Alnico stuff I've heard has been the high efficiency 6 or 8" stuff with underhung motors with low X max, so maybe the poor coercivity doesn't come into play. I believe BH max is higher than ferrite. Iron magnets are heavy. Coercivity is might still be better than ferrite too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  7. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    As do more than a few others. Also a lot of pentode amps that people are making, but I can remain skeptical :)
     
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  8. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    The great thing about DIYaudio is that users have flags on their profiles. You start to notice the different trends. Romanians, Greeks, and other Eastern Europeans tend to be knee deep in the exotica while Germans tend to be hyper-objectivists. The Brits are usually objectivists too but have a cheekier sense of humor when responding to the Eastern Bloc. Germans are always really sterile and reductionist which never helps their arguments.
     
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  9. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    Well, I think the amount of current required to demagnetize an Alnico magnet would also demagnetize an equivalent mass of ferrite. The compression angle doesn't make any sense as the demagnetization, when it happens, is permanent. It's not like a bouncy thing from what I understand. I think you are hunting for evidence that Alnico is no good or that all Alnico drivers have a warm or smooth sound because some old geezers are using ancient Altec 15" woofers with Alnico magnets or guitar shredders using tube amps with the bass knob turned up for a warm tone. Having been a bassist in a previous life, I can assure you that guitar amps and guitar cabinets are completely unsuitable for high fidelity. The fact that some guitar cabinets offer more expensive Alnico drivers is coincidental.

    Also, I doubt Seas, a very straightforward company that tends to be very honest in their specsheets, would randomly throw in an Alnico motor in their TOTL fullrange driver for no good reason. Seas is Norweigan. So is Craig. Norweigans use measurements and ears and don't seem to be as stubbornly dogmatic as the Germans, who can make something awesome like the HD650 one day, but then overthink the problem and make face tweeters like HD800 or unnecessarily expensive overly complex and engineered tanks like the Tiger which broke down too often in real world use.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
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  10. OJneg

    OJneg The Most Insufferable

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    It's possible that a lot of the older Alnico woofers have demagnetized themselves over the past 60 years and that's why they have that sound. I'm open to that possibility

    As far as hunting for evidence goes, I'm just reading what's out there at this point and attempting to correlate it to subjective testimonies.
     
  11. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

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    I have not heard the older Alnico stuff. I am actually afraid of it, not just for the need to remagnetize the magnets, but also from rotting surrounds and spiders, fraying wires to the voice coil, etc.

    Scratch that. I've heard some old Alnico stuff. The 8" Stephens on the Edgarhorn. Let's say I hook up it up once and decided to never listen to it again, as it was going to another home.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  12. Armaegis

    Armaegis Friend

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    And the Canuck kids just sit there wondering why the old folks are always fighting and whether we should put them in a home yet.
     
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  13. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

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    I think we should really listen to some of the alnico stuff. I'm open to the possibility that @Besnia was right and that Neodymium has a sound to it. He has the Ether 7.1.12 drivers and likes them a lot. I've seen them at shows before along with some other alnico stuff but it never blew me away on the spot.

    Regarding the ionized tweeters. Yep, super high distortion that would make all objectivists run away screaming. I guess the best idea is just to cross is really high (say 8kHz like Acapella) and hope that the IMD won't be too terrible, but even then the distortion will be way past audible levels. Also probably a good idea to play digital redbook with absolutely no content in the ultrasonics. Actually the best idea is probably to play only sine waves of 10kHz and higher.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
  14. Priidik

    Priidik Friend

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    Some article about diamond domes : here
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2016
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  15. MrTie

    MrTie Friend

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  16. briskly

    briskly Friend

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    What modern woofers are those? A quick look at the T/S parameters or the impedance plots would tell you that most modern drivers are dominated by electrical damping with little mechanical losses.
     
  17. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    Ahh, well put on all points :)
     
  18. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    Just a little correction, I didn't mean Neo had "sound" to it. It has what I would describe as "noise" that is somewhat reminiscent of electrical noise, and is most evident in the treble region.

    Did you hear the Ethers at the Munich show? At any show I've heard them, I had the feeling the treble was subdued. In reality I think most other systems had hyped-up sound, a la HD800 :) For example, the half a million euro MBL system had, to my ears, a razor blade treble. It was hurting my ears. Such shows defeat their own purpose. The background noise is usually horrible. Exotics aside, of all commercial/off the shelf products, I'd pick Focals. My overall impression is they are just a bit better in almost every respect.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016
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  19. Besnia

    Besnia Almost "Made"

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    Pentode in triode mode = nice :) Pentode mode = chainsaw massacre! It's not just that though. Topology, different tubes and mostly output transformers can make a huge difference.
     
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  20. Smitty

    Smitty Too good for bad vodka - Friend

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    I have a Dennis Had 6L6, and since I bought it along with a preamp Dennis added switches to change the tubes between triode and ultralinear modes. The difference was not subtle, and you definitely didn't want to listen to classical or jazz in ultralinear. Of course, this was quite some time ago, I've packed those suckers away for the time being. I like having desk space a bit more than I enjoyed the speakers.

    Anyway, this will be really interestin to watch, since I'm kicking around ideas for some DIY floorstanding speakers, and I'm still trying to decide whether to go with a single driver or 3+ drivers with first-order crossovers. Driver choice is really important either way, and there are lots of options to choose from.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2016

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