Schiit (MultiBit) Bifrost

Honestly, DAC and even amp discussions should be kept out of that area. In my opinion people have too little experience and aren't willing to accept that there's no one size fits all option. That minor differences make up the total sound which can make or even break a certain sound signature. That your X2 and O2 combo might not be able to tell you if there's any differences.

What bugs me most and that's something I've never understood of objectivists, when someone says they can't hear a difference, no one is doubting whether it was measured to 0.01db, there's no doubt that the amp or transducer isn't capable of showing those details. But when someone does post positive results, they have to video it, publish it and proof it. If you think that there's anything scientific to blind A/B, this is the basic limiter, not cherry picked to just people that say they can't hear a difference. In fact that in itself is already a bias in science because you're not ruling out anything, just assuming that one is correct and the other is wrong.

 

I really like z reviews, and I always respect his opinion. The hobby needs more people who just speak what they hear, with no fluff added in.

He also saved me 200 dollars. Him saying he can't hear a difference with direct switching is far more believable as opposed to anybody else saying they can hear a difference after they get their upgrade in the mail days later. What's funny is the defensive comments from you guys trying to belittle his opinion-- whether it's lack of experience, liking certain headphones that we don't like, having bad music choices, or whatever else the case may be.

More experienced ears might hear a slight difference, sure, but this at least tells me that the difference here is so small that it's not worth the 200-- I rather save up for an Yggdrasil.

 

Perhaps you should wait and see if he makes a review saying he can't hear a difference between that and the Modi

 

I think everyone has struggled with this issue (of whether or not high end gear, especially DACs, sound different and/or better than decent low-end stuff) at the start of their audio journey. Audio reviewers such as Z are not immune to this, but I think we are implicitly allowed to hold them to a higher standard, because after all, they are posting a review.

When I first started into the hobby, I struggled to identify what I was hearing even when simply switching between various headphones. The first things I learned to notice were the immediately obvious differences in frequency response between headphones - but initially only at a very oblique, 10,000 foot level, like being able to tell that one headphone was brighter than another, or had more bass. Then, as my ears became more educated, I could tell slightly more discerning things, like the quality of the overall tonal balance, what was missing in the FR like mids, etc.

Slowly I started to experiment with different gear, and move up the food chain. I had some eye opening moments along the way, like noting that I could hear definite differences between the lowly Magni 2 and the Vali 1 - this may seem primitive to the experienced folks here, especially a comparison between an SS amp and a tube hybrid, but until you have experienced something like this, you don't know if it is for real.

I think the real epiphany happened for me when I added the most recent piece to my current setup - I had (have) the hd650 with the Valhalla 2 and I added the Bifrost MB (upgrading from Modi 2). I finally started to hear something totally different happening with my headphones. Instead of just noting high level FR things, I started to notice what a natural sound with really tight focus on the instruments sounded like. I was (am) hearing headphones sound like something I didn't even know headphones could sound like. I had never heard musical reproduction in this way before. Hearing this type of thing is something that most people have never experienced. If I had put this rig on my head at the outset, I don't believe I would have cued in to what it was doing so well - it took some experience.

So I went from having these questions about whether audio components can sound better once they rise above a certain level of supposedly "audbily transparent", to having a real experience with it. Now when I compare, say my HD598 to my HD650 (on my current rig), I hear the subtle things like the fact that hd598 sounds very pleasant, but does not resolve and focus to the point where a violin string sounds like a string, the way they do on my hd650s.

My point in all of this is just to say that it is totally reasonable to question the validity of this high end audiophoolery; I think we have all been there. Some people may never have the epiphany that clears up this question for them.

 

Yes. I do agree 100% on this. As I have already stated, I like his way of doing reviews. Instead of focusing sorely on the sound quality, he pays just as much attention to other aspects of headphones such as comfort, design,... which makes his review very helpful when such information is absent even from forums such as SBAF. Furthermore, I enjoy his candid way of doing reviews just as much as you do.

First of all, we're not trying to belittle his opinion. DACs are, as repeated again and again by every member of this forum, more similar than different. However, you cannot deny that his evaluations will not match 100% that of everyone. I personally hate the X2 and the HD700 because of their destructive treble that detracts from the realism of the sound, stock HD800 to a lesser extent. Purrin, on the other hand, has explained his ranking of headphones with consideration for his readers, stating that he prefers warm headphones or explaining why a headphone is not ranked highly both through measurements and impressions, making his advice seem much more plausible. Putting that aside, if one can't notice a change going from Delta-Sigma to R2R and an entirely different digital filter ( the 200$ upgrade), which pretty much makes up most of the differences between DACs, forking out over 2k$ hoping for an improvement may not be so wise a decision. All of this depends on you entirely, though. We're not going to judge you even if you run a SHP9500 through a Yggdrasil and a Rag ( a member has run KSC 75 through that rig). Just be aware that a person's ears are his only.

 

It's kinda getting creepy having both you and I reply to a comment regarding DACs at the same time again, @lm4der

 

HAHAHA. No kidding, that's pretty funny.

 

Personally, the jump from the Modi 2U to the Bifrost MB was startlingly obvious.

Now I have the Bifrost Uber, but my memory of the MB is long enough gone that I don't know how much of a difference there will be. I do remember thinking the Uber sounded a bit congested at first (relative to the MB). But, now that I've had the Uber for a couple of weeks I don't trust my memory to know how accurate that impression is.

That $250 upgrade is haunting me

 

Heh Bifrost Multibit was kinda my first earopener too. Now I'm losing my mind hearing differences everywhere, had three different amps/dacs on my table and I swear I could pass a blind test on them. Actually bothering to go through one in a relaxed setting would be fun, but I couldn't care less. Someone will still question how it's done etc. I couldn't care less what someone on some youtube video says either. My ears.

 

You guys are killing me with curiosity for how the Bifrost Multibit sounds.

 

Experience is the only way to understand not only the factors at play, but the factors that end up mattering to you, and you alone. Kind of like life - you can only learn so much by reading or theorizing. For some though, that is all they want or all they can handle, and either consciously or subconsciously they build defenses against things that might threaten their world view. It is normal, natural, and human. I accept that, and all I ask is that those who cannot (will not) hear a difference extend the same courtesy to me and allow me to hear and enjoy differences (real or imagined).

 

What creeps me out is this phenomenon:

>New component in chain
>"Wow, I've never noticed this specific detail before!"
>Listen on old chain
>"Huh, it's there too."

I don't understand why this happens apart from some sort of critical listening bias when you're aware of new changes in your equipment. But this happens to me somewhat often with things like tube rolling.

 

Short and to the point, with a great example to boot

 

This is because output comes from input, which stays the same (CDs, FLAC rips,.....).What this means that the DAC or amp will always render details. How they render them and the artifacts that are introduced in sampling, amping... is what decides if you will notice a detail. An analogy is a 720p screen vs a 4K screen . Even if you feed the 720p screen with a 4K signal, the minute details will be blended together and be much less noticeable. If you were to notice a small bush in the background on a 4K screen, coming back to 720p will be like "Ah, so that' what that green blob is". This is even worse for listening where our ears are pulled towards the macro more than the micro (something that happens with many unexperienced listeners).Hope this explanation helps.

 

Your point about whether transducers/amps are resolving enough to spot DAC differences is well taken and should be examined before making any pronouncements. If you see my TLDR () post above, where I had a lot of trouble telling the Bifrost Multibit apart from the humble built-in DAC on my Sonos streamer, I acknowledged this potential issue regarding gear (I had the misfortune of my LC failing a day before the Bifrost Multibit arrived and had to use my Marantz integrated amp head out instead (which happens to play quite nicely with the Senn HD 600 but is nonetheless not a high-end dedicated headphone amp)), as well as potentially my own limitations as a listener. But as far as level matching or blind versus sighted testing, that is only relevant IMO if you are trying to establish that you can actually tell a difference. My testing was sighted without accurate level matching and I still basically could not tell much difference (as I discussed I may have heard some improvements in certain passages of certain tracks). So, there was no reason to go to the next level. If I thought I was hearing profound differences then I could see wanting to test blind and level matched. But if one cannot even tell a difference with the benefit of those things, which help you pick out differences (whether real or imagined), then I don't see the point of going to the next level.

 

It might also be that since DACs are generally taken to be more or less neutral, people tend to expect differences to be in the form of additional details of the "Oh I have never heard this instrument/note/background sound before" sort, and if they don't they assume that the DAC is no different from a lower end one. Not many newbies, if any at all, would be aware of subtler cues like dynamics and slightly more accurate positioning and so on. Not that I am actually in a position to call others newbies since my own experience is still fairly limited compared to most guys here lol.

 

Me as well. It's still good to try and explain the differences though

 

Keep in mind that the "quality" or range of everyone's hearing is different. We don't measure and correct hearing like we do eyes with glasses or contacts.
Without my glasses, I'd look at your 240hz 4K tv and say it looks as good as my old 1080i set. Without my glasses, a 4K tv would be a waste and I wouldn't be able to see the "quality" that others see.

It's nearly impossible to pick the same reference point for everyone.

 

That's what I need! A portable ADC-DAC with tubes, so I can hear everything in life through my HD650's!