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Soekris dac1101 R2R DAC/Amp

Discussion in 'Headphone Amplifiers and Combo (DAC/Amp) Units' started by Cspirou, Oct 7, 2015.

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Page 4 of 11
  1. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Sometimes I wonder if people who make stuff actually listen to the stuff that they make or other people make. I was hoping to celebrate the Soekris the first manufacturer of a portable or small form factor R2R DAC. I guess we can celebrate that; but really, I'll take a well implemented DS portable / small form factor DAC over this one. This is regardless of cost as I don't even know how much the Soekris dac1101 costs.
     
    purr1n, Apr 20, 2016
    #61
  2. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    I wonder what went wrong. The first run board I have shows much promise. Filters were the biggest upgrade.

    With that said Soekris is known to develop on paper without verifying by ear. I wonder if this Dac can take custom filters via com port. Or if it's the USB power to blame.
     
    Hrodulf, Apr 20, 2016
    #62
  3. purr1n

    purr1n Desire for betterer is endless.

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    Could be USB. I felt the gap widened on the big boy system. Might be a few reasons. The USB on my music laptop (for use with the big boy system) is significantly worse sounding than the USB from my PC. Another factor may be that the big boy system is a lot more resolving than my PC desktop system. Still another one could be lack of Wyrd with the big boy setup.
     
    purr1n, Apr 20, 2016
    #63
  4. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Guess so. Maybe the barebones OEM boards are what's needed. Add power and inputs to your flavour.

    [​IMG]
     
    Hrodulf, Apr 21, 2016
    #64
  5. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    If the bottleneck is indeed power then the device still has potential as a mobile system with some of these carry-o-round li-po battery packs.
     
    Priidik, Apr 21, 2016
    #65
  6. Luckbad

    Luckbad Traded in a unicorn for a Corolla

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    The Soekris is indeed beholden to the strength of your USB. On my work machine from the normal USB outputs, it didn't sound so hot. Things improved from a USB card, a bit more with an Intona, and better still from my home computer.

    But, really, @purrin said almost all the same things as me but in a not-sugar-coated manner.

    I tried to hang with the Soekris as my work DAC for a week and couldn't--I started transporting my Atlantis to and from work every day.
     
    Luckbad, Apr 21, 2016
    #66
  7. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    This thing is based on 80% of the original dam1021, it should be good. but there are a lot of prerequisites for it too. Quality power, quality i2s-usb, and the output buffer will take away at least some of the good stuff of unbuffered goodness.
     
    Priidik, Apr 21, 2016
    #67
  8. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

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    Are line outputs on the 1101 buffered? It was my impression that raw ladder output was pretty sufficient for most applications.
     
    Hrodulf, Apr 21, 2016
    #68
  9. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    My thoughts on the DAC1101 as a combo DAC/amp unit with the HD650:

    1. Lacks lower octave presence, slam, power, etc.

    2. Has that multibit density, sort of internal 3D nature, but lacks a sense of midrange richness. Almost bordering on a lean midrange.

    - Combine 1 and 2 and you get a fairly neutral sound, albeit one that is bordering on one lacking dynamics, body, and is maybe even slightly bright.

    3. Decent sense of speed, separation, clarity, but stage kind of has this loose, poorly defined quality to it in some sort of hard-to-explain, minor sense. Stage is on the more intimate, 2D side of things, but still has some of the multibit positive traits that work in its favor. Not bad overall. I still prefer it over the vast majority of D/S DACs with built in oversampling filters in this regard.

    4. Noticeably prickly and digital sounding in the treble. Almost...crunchy sounding. Dry and thin. Weird. I do not like that part at all. Holds true even with a Regen in there, which normally seems to soften things up.

    5. Usually a slow roll-off filter helps smooth and soften treble as well as provide a fuller sound. It certainly softens the lower treble on this but, for whatever reason, makes the sound even less dynamic, more dull, almost with less body. Upper-treble nastiness still there. Less cohesive and more weird sounding overall than the other 3 filter choices, which sound basically the same. If anything, the slow roll-off filter makes the upper-treble nasties stand out more.

    6. Something about the timbre just does not sound natural. Sounds like a digital, solid-state device in an almost stereotypical sense.

    7. Resolution and detail retrieval is not bad. Definitely better than the old Metrum stuff, maybe hovering around or slightly below Bifrost Multibit? Hard to tell without back-to-back. Not as good as the newer Metrums or Gungnir Multibit, I'd say.

    8. Bass could be better defined. Slightly loose as is.

    I'll have to try it out with a less demanding headphone to see if that changes anything, something like my modded PM-2. I'll also try it as a DAC only.

    This strikes me as one of those devices where the DAC board itself has potential but is probably best paired with a good power supply, the ability to have multiple digital inputs, and a good, custom oversampling filter fed into a dedicated amp of some kind.
     
    Hands, Jun 11, 2016
    #69
  10. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Damn, I hate to make another post so quickly, but I have been letting the DAC1101 run for a couple hours now as warm-up, and it DOES seem to change after some running time.

    Most notable is that the bass sounds better extended and powerful and the mids sound much more fleshed out and less lean. The downside to this is the slightly loose bass quality becomes even more apparent after warm-up. It's not bad, just not top-tier by any means.

    The treble nasties are still there but seem smoother and more in-line with everything else, no doubt helped by the overall thicker, warmer sound after, well...warm-up. It still doesn't sound quite natural up top.

    I did want to clarify my points on resolution, resolving abilities, details, etc. Staging, imaging, I don't think that's a strong suit here. Again, it's kind of loose, not particular well defined, and intimate. This means some things are harder to pinpoint and hear than you'd normally be able to, even compared to something like the Bifrost Multibit.

    On the other hand, there is a good sense of speed, clarity, and OK detail retrieval outside of that, which might seem counter-intuitive. In other words, individual elements on the DAC1101 can sound a bit soft and fuzzy around the edges, as well as a bit crowded in the stage, yet still have decent clarity, speed, and detail internal to these elements.
     
    Hands, Jun 11, 2016
    #70
  11. Hands

    Hands Overzealous Auto Flusher - Measurbator

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    Standalone DAC impressions:

    1. Pretty much all of that weird, treble nastiness I was hearing earlier is gone. Much smoother and natural sounding across the board. Still a bit of a digital sheen to the sound, as if the sound isn't entirely "pure," but so much better. Slow roll-off mode almost entirely eliminates it but has a side effect of reducing overall dynamics a bit.

    2. Everything sounds clearer and sharper in a good way. Bass sounds tighter and better defined. Staging and imaging is much less fuzzy and loose.

    3. Stage is still relatively small, intimate, and upfront sounding. I wish it took a step back and had more width and depth to it.

    4. Ultimate resolution is still somewhere around Bifrost Multibit level, if I had to guess. Really not bad at all.

    5. My main complaint is that it sounds a bit neutral-lean. Lower end and mids aren't as full and explosive as they could or should be. Whereas the device as a DAC and amp combo unit seems to get thicker and warmer sounding as time goes on, the DAC portion alone retained that slightly lean sound I heard when the device was cold. Kinda sorta like the Bifrost Multibit in this regard too.

    Overall, it's hard to judge this device. As a standalone DAC, I'd rather have a Bifrost Multibit. As a portable DAC/amp unit, it does have some merit, but I'm not sure it has enough positive traits or really beats out other, cheaper units from a performance or value perspective. Unfortunately, I don't have a ton of experience with DAC/amp combo units, so I'm going off what others have said here.

    In theory, it's a very cool unit. I mean, the fact that it's a portable, discrete multibit DAC with built in amp that can even power an HD650 keeps me interested...in concept. In practice, I'm just not really sure how I feel about it from a performance or value perspective. It's a good start, though. I hope Soekris keeps up the effort and keeps putting out products. I mean, look at Metrum...their first gen DACs had promise but lacked in some key areas. They hit back hard with their new generation. I hope Soekris can deliver the same over time, because what they're doing on paper is cool, and their prices aren't idiotic like TotalDAC. It will also be interesting to see what crazy things DIYers can do with their DAC modules and custom filters.
     
    Hands, Jun 11, 2016
    #71
  12. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    Thanks to the loaner program, I got to spend a few days with the Soekris DAC1101. Here’s my take on it.

    Test tracks:

    • Def Leppard, Hysteria, Pour Some Sugar on Me
    • Beirut, The Rip Tide, The Rip Tide
    • Rickie Lee Jones, It’s Like This, Show Biz Kids
    • Reso, Tangram, Check 1,2
    • The National, Boxer, Fake Empire
    Transport: Jriver on 5k iMac

    I kept the Soekris on the orange filter setting because I had enough variables to test without adding that. I didn’t listen to the Soekris cold; I let it warm up a bit before my fist listen, and after messing around with various configurations on the first day I kept it running continuously for rest of the time I had it.

    USB –> Wyrd –> Soekris DAC1101 vs. USB –> Gungnir Multibit –> Laconic NBM, both into modded HD650

    Soekris is distinguished by a less dynamic feeling, less low and less hard-hitting bass, and flatter, less dimensional sound stage (more “3-blob”). Both seem about equally resolving to my ears but the Soekris is less involving. Not boring, but slightly less exciting, perhaps because the upper midrange on the Soekris seemed a tiny bit recessed vs. the Gungnir Multibit + NBM and the Soekris bass was less dynamic, or perhaps because the NBM adds some euphonic distortion.

    Adding a Wyrd to the chain didn’t make things dramatically better or worse on the Soekris, though it may have helped with the low end a bit. That said, I did have an easier time distinguishing the Soekris from the Gungnir Multibit+NBM without the Wyrd between the computer and the Soekris. If I was using the Soekris full time I’d run it through the Wyrd for sure.

    Soekris vs. GO1k (version 1 Geek Out), neither with Wyrd, both into modded HD650

    Damn; very close. Most immediately perceptible diff is staging. The Soekris feels like it has a deeper and narrower sound stage. Dynamics, bass, detail, and fun factor are about equal to me which is to say a notch below Gungnir Multibit –> NBM. On a track or two I detected a tiny bit of upper midrange/lower treble glare from the GO1k that wasn’t there with the Soekris. As a result, Ricky Lee Jones’ voice on Show Biz Kids sound smoother and less forward, as if it had been turned down very slightly in the mix.

    Wyrd –> Soekris line out –> Laconic NBM vs. USB –> Gungnir Multibit –> Laconic NBM, both into modded HD650 (basically Soekris as DAC-only vs. Gungnir Multibit)

    I spent most of my time listening to this configuration.

    Gungnir Multibit hits harder with fuller, more textured-sounding and has a noticeably wider, more separated stage. Matt Berninger’s voice on “Fake Empire” sounds deeper and more chesty via the Gungnir Multibit, and less so on the Soekris. The Soekris is more tame sounding, less punchy and less dynamic. Gungnir Multibit renders the midrange with more detail and presence.

    Are these pants-shittingly-large differences?(1) Not to me. :) They’re noticeable in direct comparison, and the advantage is clearly to the Gungnir Multibit, but they’re not huge differences in the big picture. Does the Soekris make the music horrible and unenjoyable to listen to? Not at all.

    Here’s a bit of pentagram goodness to illustrate the differences as I heard them:

    Sokris DAC1101 vs. Gumby and GO1k.png

    Overall

    In the grand scheme of things I think the Soekris is a middling value. It’s bested in almost every technicality by my more expensive Gungnir Multibit –> NBM rig (and that’s with the Gungnir Multibit running on “cripple mode” via the USB input), but that’s as it should be IMO. Use the Soekris as a DAC only with something like a Vali and I think you’re looking at a very pleasing, versatile combo for ~$850 before tax and shipping. Throw in a Wyrd (I’d recommend this based on what I heard) and you’re quite close to $1k, which means a lot of people will need to think long and hard about this. There’s a lot of ways to skin the source+amp cat if you have $1k to spend, and even a Bifrost Multibit + Vali 2 is in the same basic budget bracket as the Soekris alone, though not a portable design. And then there’s the Geek Out.

    The Geek Out represents a stronger value vs. the Soekris because of the GO’s lower price and really solid sound, but version 2 of the GO feels like a cereal box toy from a Soviet Cold War-era cereal while the Soekris actually looks and feels nice sitting on a desk, isn’t ever hot to the touch, and feels like it would handle being shuttled between work and home daily without parts of it falling off. So if you really follow the value and go with a Geek Out you do lose some sound quality and a tonne of build quality, but I could see that working for some folks because it’s a bit less than 50% the price of the Soekris.

    If the Soekris resolved the worst of its relatively modest sonic shortcomings (I’m guessing the amp section is the low hanging fruit for improvement in a v2), it would make the whole value question even more challenging to answer. :) A resolving and musical but not glarey and etched DAC in a small, quality enclosure along with a kickass amp? I could see that making a lot of people really happy at work or some other secondary system situation.

    I think those with more experience/better ears will find more nits to pick with the Soekris’ sound(2). For example, I definitely noticed the leanness but did not notice the loose/fuzzy bass definition issues that others have pointed out. I suspect that my headphones or choice of music don’t really put a microscope on that part of the spectrum though, or those issue might be more apparent with better gear than I have. But overall, the Soekris is really great in a lot of ways given the constraints inherent in its design (small, transportable, USB-powered). I think for a lot of people it would serve as the heart of a pretty great workplace rig, for example.

    A bit of closing context: In my experience (relying a bit on my rusty audio memory here) there’s a more obvious, gobsmackingly noticeable difference between the Gungnir Multibit USB and SPDIF inputs (with certain tracks) than between the Soekris and any other setups I compared it to. Maybe that means my ears suck, maybe my system isn’t resolving enough, or maybe that just points out how subtle differences between different DACs are?

    Footnotes:

    1) What is a pants-shittingly-large difference, you ask? Think the value prop of Vali 1 vs. stuff that sounded as good when the Vali came out. Think Geek Out v1 vs. similarly priced stuff when it came out.

    2) My review isn’t quite as critical as others. That doesn’t mean I love everything (http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/meze–99-classic.1469/page–3#post–57103) :)
     
    philipmorgan, Jun 20, 2016
    #72
  13. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Not at all unlike the original DIY project without proper mods. My pretty heavily modded dam1021 is roughly on level in dynamics with Yggdrasil, but won't compete with it's original power scheme.
    I bet this little bug would get at least a bit better with some mods, but that would sort of negate its value as portable unit. Something to think about for those who require best possible sound on the go.
     
    Priidik, Jun 21, 2016
    #73
  14. philipmorgan

    philipmorgan Member of the month

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    What mods did you do?
     
    philipmorgan, Jun 24, 2016
    #74
  15. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    - Shift reg power bypasses (added rather ocd level of capacitance for one per each shift reg + some additional ceramics). This should be sort of fixed on the newer boards, still more further bypasses usually help (confirmed in some posts by fellow DIYA modders). This one gave most impact on dynamics and 'clean slam', background feels darker - 10 to 15% better
    - 1x Salas Ref-D powers clean side of USB-I2S Better imaging and better defined transients - 2% better
    - (1x Salas Ref-D powers onboard osc)* Better imaging and better defined transients - 1% better
    - Salas BiB does bipolar main dc rails at 7 V or something Smoother, cleaner, more 'refined' - 5 to 10% better
    - Removed main psu side from the board (not needed now) Not much difference in sound
    - Removed output buffers, can't say if it made a difference, but I'm not using those
    - Latest Filters by Spzzzkt Stock filter should not be used at all, it's lo fi.

    There are some more things that could be made for minimal gains in SQ, but I became lazy and want Yggdrasil with tubes now instead.

    *Currently left out as it didn't fit in current compact chassis
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2016
    Priidik, Jun 25, 2016
    #75
  16. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    uncola, Jun 25, 2016
    #76
  17. alvin1118

    alvin1118 MOT - VINSHINE AUDIO

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    My Soekris DAC will soon be ready !

    DAC Input Board
    [​IMG]
    - Rubycon ZLH Reservoir Caps, Nichicon MUSE & WIMA Caps
    - Vishay High Prevision Resistors

    [​IMG]
    - Murata Isolation Transformer for Digital Input
    - Neutrik XLR for AES/EBU

    Headamp Board
    [​IMG]
    - Nichicon KG Gold Tune Reservior Caps
    - Neutrik Headphone Output Jacks

    [​IMG]
    - Nichicon MUSE & WIMA Caps For Signal Path
    - BOURNS Potential Meter

    Overview
    [​IMG]
     
    alvin1118, Aug 31, 2016
    #77
  18. Priidik

    Priidik MOT: Estelon

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    Priidik, Aug 31, 2016
    #78
  19. uncola

    uncola Friend

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    I think Alvin's soekris is the most professional commercial type implementation. Soren should be happy to see it in the wild
     
    uncola, Aug 31, 2016
    #79
  20. alvin1118

    alvin1118 MOT - VINSHINE AUDIO

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    Thanks uncola. Here's the master SAMPLE board sound test, very promising !

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    alvin1118, Sep 5, 2016
    #80
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