NOT: Theory on the new Schiit

"uncle" Never knew it was this simple or complicated.

Now if I could only find a $2-3k or less pair of speakers that doesn't sport a lowly 7 incher in a two way, I might move beyond "good small"

 

$2K, 10" full range driver: http://www.zuaudio.com/loudspeakers/soul (I own the discontinued earlier version)

Or these look interesting for $1K: http://www.tektondesign.com/lore.html

Edit: And don't forget the sub for another $1K: 18" http://www.tektondesign.com/sub.html

 

A friend recommended these 12" drivers to me once for an OB:
http://www.fane-international.com/prod_details.aspx?pid=530
They're $85 each http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/55-5305
I don't have any experience with them, but thought I would point them out

 

speaker design is much more complicated and always a trade off. its more complicated then bigger woofer is always better then smaller. bigger woofer for bass is better, but not for midrange at all. I think its a fact that the more crossover and driver you have in a speaker, the more risk to run into big problems. I have had big three way speakers with 12 inch woofer notably jbl lsr32 or diy. comparing those system with huge woofers, to my small 2 way + subwoofer, for my need I dont hear any degradation in bass. sure, if I push the level over 90 db, big three ways will always win, but I dont listen ever to those level personally

here's what anssi, owner of amphion speakers (my amphion one18 is still my reference), has to say:
"It would be easier to understand the world if one could always say bigger=better but it does not work that way. The best possible transducer would have the ultimately quick and it would move tons of air. You start increasing the air you move and you start loosing speed and mobility. Think of it as needing to move some soil from a pile to large flower pots – you can do it more effectively with a showel but sure stars getting messier and more uncontrolled than we using a smaller object used with a single hand. Not the best possible example maybe but you get the point. Your hearing is most precise at midband and you lower you go with same driver the worse it works in terms of speed and precision the bigger it is"

either you use big drivers that you cut around 300hz which put a crossover in a very risky area, either you let them play up to 1khz where again its a big risk and you might loose speed and precision in the midrange. either you let a midbass small unit like 5, 6 or 8 inch go down to 80hz and use a sub to fill in but compromise the 60hz to 150hz where small midbass can never play as well as big wofers but then you gain no crossover from 60hz to 2khz which can bring many advantage in terms of integration, intelligibility, phase. everything is a compromise, but ime something about small woofers in the midrrange and no crossover from 60hz to 2khz is a very interesting "compromise".

small 2 ways can be listened in nearfield or within 8 feet. but big 12 inch woofers based speaker will generally need more distance from the speakers, which is then very risky in that it demands midfield or far field listening which demand a top notch room, .
big speakers need a extremely well design room, midfield listening, ect. my room is well treated for nearfield listening, but midfield or farfield listening demands a lot more in term or room treatment, ect. I tend to think a good room is basically the most important thing and any acoustician know that the further you move away from the speakers, its exponentially harder to have good response at the listening position.

so no, bigger woofer are not always better when it comes to home hifi. arguably, they induce as much a trade off as smaller speaker

 

but I can alway hear the crossover around 300hz.

most big studio monitors are always listened in the midfield at least. no nonsense about it at all. they need more space between each speaker in order to breath, and away from the listening position in order the drivers integrate. theres very few big speakers that are optimal 6 to 8 feet away from the LP

 

problem is, yes a 12 inch in the midbass is better but to me, i guess im very difficult when it comes to midrange accuracy and tonality or crossover design and handoff between mid and tweeter. ime, very few speakers nail that.

ill take compromise midbass but SOTA midrange/tweeter vs excellent midbass but probems everywhere else.

in the commercial realm, sadly, to have a no compromise big speaker with big woofer means a LOT of money. DIY is for me the only option and tbh, having experience sota 2 ways, I cannot live with compromised midtweet even if the bass is better.

 

big woofer most of the time turns a speaker to a 3 way and adds a unecessary crossover, unless you use 2 way horns crossed at 1khz but then you again may risk less precision/speed between 250hz at 1khz vs dedicated midbass in a 2 way that would cover 60hz to 2khz.
I cannot hear a 2 way + 60hz crossover. I can always hear a 3 way with 300hz xo.


do your 12 inch speaker based are 3 way or 2 ways?

 

I guess I hear differently than you. I'd rather kill myself than listen to a sub crossed over at 60Hz. The only way I would integrate a sub is below 40Hz, assuming LR12
why? even 100 hz is 10 feet long. I cross mine around 70hz with 12db/octave

I am not a fan of the typical woofer to tweeter crossover at 2k to 3k. I guess we are all used to it, but after trying so much non-standard stuff, I've found it to be most annoying.

having had tannoy gold 12 inch, amphion one18, harbeth p3esr,scm7, decapo be with mid/tweet xo respectively at 1khz, 1.6khz, 4khz, 2khz and 5khz, I dont hear much problem with the typical 2-3khz xo compared to 1khz, 4hz or 5khz.
seeing your love for 1 way speakers in FAST settiing makes me want to try lowther though or supravox
never tried a twetter/horn so low as 500hz though and im very interested in ML logan theos with one xo at 300hz then the panel do everything over 300hz.

 

This is getting too heady for me...all this talk of crossovers and subs...is Schiit getting into speakers too?

 

I would actually really appreciate that. Woo woo foo foo aside, it's been interesting.

 

Hey Marvey,

I'm sorry about my earlier mixup between you and bixby; I fixed it before I saw this reply. Well it's a compromise. Velodyne makes a wide range of subs, and I expect some of the cheapest to suck. But the Velodyne DD+ subs are great, the equal of Fathoms: better in some ways, worse in others. Velodyne makes two magnet structures for four DD+ models. The 10" and 12" use one size, the 15" and 18" share another.

For a *given* magnet structure and coil, a lighter moving mass will distort less when it is well inside its Xmax. It was reps at Velodyne who said the smaller ones are better *only within* a certain excursion or spl range, but that only makes sense. My room is medium-sized so I got the 12" ones. The 10"s are faster and would have been a better choice in that room. However, I wanted to be ready in case of a move to a bigger room.

You've made very good points about subwoofer and full-range speaker design, I agree with most: among many, I also hate high crossover points for subs. I think any full range system today must have at least 4 dynamic drivers and 4 bands, maybe just 3 planar ones. We used to build 6-way speakers until tweeters became available to cover everything above 3k using 1st order crossovers.

But your criticism of Velodyne and B&W is unfair. The mechanics of subs are pretty simple, but the design and build of great transducers is a tough challenge. I agree that JBL makes excellent drivers and keep innovating. But they have also built a great many unlistenable speakers. ATC and B&W make even better drivers for the consumer market, but they cost much more. Important factors are the quality of the coils and structures, which for ATC SL series and the B&W D3 series are fantastic. JBL does make fine, bombproof drivers, but they distort more.

The ATC 12" is better than the 15" only below certain spl. Once again, that's because both use the same superb, Super Linear, monstrous magnet structure with 4" coils and extremely tight gap tolerance. We built some of the world's great subs first using a pair of 13" Vietta cotton cones then ATC 12" cones in each 32' transmission line cabinet. We used the smaller drivers because the 12s are faster than the 15s. There is another important consideration, the time coherence of a single driver vs. multiple drivers, so that is a compromise. And your point about shorter excursions needed with larger cones is another.

 

Not sure if there's much musical content that goes <50Hz. I think the main application for <50Hz is with movies. Adding subwoofer box does create it's own bass reflection and stereo coherence(single box) issues. My personal preference for music playback is a solid 8" bookshelf speakers without any subs. Although I might add a subwoofer for 2.1 setup for movie watching.

side note: Yggdrasil DAC really excels with movies even though it might be 2 channel. It might not be Dolby ATMOS level but I am pretty sure I prefer Yggdrasil + bookshelf over any PC soundcard + PC multimedia 7.1/5.1 setups(e.g. Logitech Z5500)

 

I'm sure that there is. Not in all music, obviously.