Pictures of your speaker system

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by Cspirou, Nov 6, 2015.

Tags:
  1. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    50,339
    Dislikes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Haha exactly.

    Listen more and worry less. Most rooms of normal people are not a problem. The only room I've seen which requires a heavier hand in room treatments is @brencho's. He lives in an older El Lay area house with the plaster walls and very inopportune location of a fireplace and door at the first side reflection points.

    As far as room treatments:
    1. Millennium Falcon in glass table, as you mentioned. Not sure if this is necessary since the top of the table is roughly parallel to the plane between the mids / tweeters and the listener's head. But why not? It's a glass top table.
    2. Fluffy seat to the right edge of the photo to address the first reflection.
    3. Not pictured: open song books on the piano and random crap in top of the piano to address the first reflection on the left side.
    4. Blinds in the center behind the speaker to act as a primitive diffuser. Varying the blinds will change the effect. I've stopped caring and don't bother with tweaking this anymore.
    5. Controlled dispersion of buttcheek horns means I have to worry less about the side walls.
     
  2. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    50,339
    Dislikes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    Ethan Weiner has a general point which has absolutely nothing to do with this specific situation. Using him as an appeal to authority is lame. This is SBAF, you should know better than to do this.

    Either way, unless this Weiner dude can demonstrate that a 24" x 36" x 2" panel can reduce a 9db peak at 27/55Hz or fill in a 12db null at 68Hz in a 11' x 17' room by even a small 2-3db, then he's just full of shit about his "30% reductions". Honestly, I expect more from "Mr. Science."

    Did you save the impulse response files? Simply run them again with the same visualization parameters. You don't need to redo the measurements.

    Although this can be inferred, you've been oddly vague on the room treatments that you use and the purpose of these room treatments - what you are trying to address?

    For bass below 120-150Hz, we are talking about room modes. A simple frequency response is an effective primary tool to identify the peaks and nulls. Use CSDs to augment if necessary, but CSDs are better for use higher up in the frequency range

    If you know what you are doing, there is no need to feel threatened by my "dismissive" attitude. I've been talking with @brencho about ideas for treating his room without it looking like shit and pissing off his wife.

    I am dismissive at the notion that room treatments are necessary for speaker use. This is generally not true and prevents people who can be getting into speakers from doing so. Too many PMs from people asking me about getting into speakers and not having the proper room. My intention to is absolutely KILL this room treatment "requirement", and then build it back up again, but with the right approach.

    I am also dismissive at people who go for room treatments without first identifying issues. What are we trying to address? Room bass modes? Too lively and echoey? Poor or unstable center or fuzzy imaging? Are we actually address the problem or just buying shit because someone said it was necessary for speakers.

    I am also dismissive of small woofers, headphones, and planar tech (especially e-stats) too even though I use them all. So what else is new?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  3. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    542
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Winnipeg, Canada
    Wasn't really my intention. Simply trying to point out that even inefficient absorption can be beneficial.

    Yes, I have all of my test data saved on my laptop. A ridiculous amount spanning gear changes as well as room changes and not as organized as I would like but this should be easy enough. I already know the result will be basically the same but I will follow up shortly.

    Bass resolution. Went from boomy, muddy bass to hearing bass lines we never even knew existed. Picking on the strings of bass lines we never even knew existed. I'm not shitting you here. Maybe I am an edge case but I don't need graphs to know what I hear. They simply quantify my subjective opinion.

    I'm not threatened, and my apologies if you think I am being an ass. It's your place and I'm not wanting to piss on your carpet, I have greatest respect for everyone here. Just saying what I think. That seems to be encouraged here.

    Also, I think one of my main points was my treatments are certainly not wife friendly. They are pretty intrusive actually. That is probably what makes them effective.

    I'll agree anything that moves more air is better. Subject to all the limitations above. :)
     
  4. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    50,339
    Dislikes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    This is what I want to hear. Your subjective opinion, not graphs, unless you are super well versed in them. I can pick graphs apart all day.

    For what you mentioned, I would look at both FR and CSD between 100Hz and 500Hz. Maybe even higher. Concentrate on FR first.

    Distortion too if possible from 50Hz to 300Hz. Mostly attributable to drivers, but sometimes things shake in the room.

    Did you do anything else, like move the speakers away from the wall, or was this all room treatments?
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  5. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    542
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Winnipeg, Canada
    Thanks. I'm not pretending to be an REW expert here, but when I make changes I can hear, and I can take measurements that actually seem to reflect the changes I can hear, I consider that useful.

    And yeah, only treatments. Lots of them for sure, but I have measurements every step of the way there too.
     
  6. Serious

    Serious Inquisitive Frequency Response Plot

    Friend BWC MZR
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,691
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    rural area where noone can hear your screams
    I bought a big chunk of wool for getting rid of the floor bounce when measuring speakers outdoors. I tried putting it in my room to see what's the biggest effect it can have on the 42Hz room mode (which is the most dominant in my room, the 2nd axial length mode). I kept it in its plastic bag, but I doubt that would change much. This is a 80cm high, 60cm in diameter cylinder of wool, so it's pretty big. The flow resistivity is specified as 1.7 kPa*s/m² which according to the porous absorber calculator should be pretty good for a basstrap.
    In the best position I got about 1db less at 42Hz, going from a 8db to a 7db peak at my listening position and 1.2db more at 72Hz. This is with the mic at the same position and simply positioning and removing the "absorber", measurements taken less than 5 minutes apart. Decay seemed to be a tiny bit quicker, too.
    Still. 1db isn't bad and the difference was definitely audible, I just wouldn't expect miracles. I plan on keeping the wool under my bed once I find a good way to store it so that I can quickly remove it for its main purpose. For now it's in storage, though.

    However the difference is far less than the difference between OB speakers and speakers that are omnidirectional in the bass or the difference betwen different listening positions. In the living room (which is the same length as my room) where my dad has his floorstanders (front ported) close to the back wall and sits at almost half the room length the 42Hz room mode is almost 18db in the right channel (not as much in the left channel). In 60ms it's 10db down in my room, but just 5db down in the living room. That is a massive difference, I'll tell you that much.

    Absorbers that work for bass frequencies need to be extremely thick and I think even very good studios will have around 10db room modes (dip to peak) in the bass. That's just the way it is with speakers. Personally I'm not too much a fan of digital room correction, either, at least when there are other options. But for 200Hz+ absorbers can be nice (and even then you'd probably need 10cm thickness for it to have some effect). Or you can build lots of helmholtz resonators with a big volume or have a room with a funky shape. Speakers can have really good bass despite not so nice looking FR curves.
     
  7. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    50,339
    Dislikes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    We haven't seen any evidence of such measurements yet. Again, not doubting what you hear or that there are measurement differences. But you can't whip up CSD measurements with different vertical ranges and say that there are changes. That's measurement manipulation (unintentional in your case),but still hits a nerve with me.*

    Without knowing more about your bass traps (or treatments), I highly doubt we would see anything significant below 100Hz. In any event, issues with blurry bass string articulation or muddiness will be found in the higher bass and low mids. It's not about being an REW expert. REW is just a tool, like a screwdriver, a hammer, or DMM. It's about being super anal retentive, being able to consistently repeat with the same results, being relentless in the pursuit of patterns that might correlate to the subjective experience, and then presenting data in a consistent and clear manner.

    --

    *This "marketing" CSD below is what prompted me to eventually start Changstar. I puked when I saw it.
    LCD2-Waterfall-1W-NF.jpg

    This is what I got:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2019
  8. leafy

    leafy Rando

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    17
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Taiwan
    [​IMG]
    Current setup with Yaggdrasil/Jotumheim/Vidar and a pair of LS50. I haven't decided whether I want a subwoofer yet. And the speaker stands.....my friend promised to give me a pair but it hasn't happened yet.
     
  9. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    6,361
    Dislikes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    There is an instant room treatment that I can apply to anybody's room if they use a sofa (or even an armchair) at the listening position: sit on the floor with the sofa behind me, rather than on the sofa with the wall behind me. It almost always makes a difference that I can hear, and I almost always choose to stay on the floor. So I conclude that this simple stuff makes a difference. Also, the owners seldom bother to try it!

    I tend to be dismissive of the effects of thin mats, on floors or walls: sound is just more durable than that! But, without personal before/after experience, better I say sceptical rather than dismissive!

    I am very sceptical of those who apply any sort of correction to a room without first removing or fixing all the potentially vibrating items. Whereas a messy shelf full of books may be an effective diffuser, even the tidiest shelf of china ornaments is going to be singing along. Resonance is your enemy; blutack is your friend.

    It's amazing what resonates. Actually, almost everything given half a chance. I keep a small, plastic snack box (Sesame Balls) to eat in concerts: it vibrates with the music.
     
    Jinxy245 likes this.
  10. Hrodulf

    Hrodulf Prohibited from acting as an MOT until year 2050

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2015
    Likes Received:
    2,696
    Dislikes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Generally in most residential rooms there are two things which muck up any serious speaker listening.

    1. Bass sucks because of boundary gain and/or placement in regard to pressure nodes.
    2. Upper mids suck because reverb trails are too long and denser recordings turn into roaring mush.

    So, what can you do?

    1. EQ to counter boundary gain. To do this properly a measurement mic helps a lot.
    2. Tweak positioning to counter especially troublesome modes. Use multi-sub management to iron out nulls. Again - having a mic helps a bunch.
    3. Upper mid stuff is rather short wavelength so you can fight it with furniture -
    a) Have a rug on the floor, the thicker the better
    b) Have wallpaper on the walls
    c) Have bookshelves (with books) or some furniture on primary reflection points at side-walls
    d) Have thick blinds on windows, the heavier the fabric the better (large naked glass surfaces suck Arsch)
    e) Have large puffy sofa-like furniture which can eat up a lot of stray sounds flying around

    Extra points if your dry-wall is able to flex, but doesn't rattle. Large walls with flexing surfaces will actually absorb bass/sub-bass.

    The problem is that a lot of this goes against contemporary minimalist Scandinavian interior, so more often than not modern rooms will ring like a mofo.
     
  11. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    542
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Winnipeg, Canada
    I will post some more graphs scaled the same a bit later today, should I continue to put them here? I know I have posted some room pics already but can't remember what thread that was. I'll have a look for those too.

    The low E on a bass guitar is around 41Hz, and the low B on an extended bass is 33Hz. I do realize that muddiness probably comes from harmonics further up, but the sonic improvements still manifest themselves down pretty low.

    It's pretty tough to make things completely repeatable with measurements taken over long periods of time. Even using the pink noise generator to set the attenuation before a set of measurements is going to have some error from run to run. What I am looking for when I use these tools is trends, not absolute numbers. In that regard I do think it is possible to look at two graphs that are not scaled identically and still spot differences.
     
  12. purr1n

    purr1n Finding his inner redneck

    Staff Member Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2015
    Likes Received:
    50,339
    Dislikes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Antarctica
    You are the one who posted your plots to back yourself up, taking the objective angle, and citing my appreciation of measurements.

    I'm simply calling it that I don't see any differences in the plots that you posted (in the areas that could comparable) that couldn't be attributed to environmental or random factors. If you want to post plots, be prepared to back yourself up. Heck, I get challenged on my plots by the regulars and often I have to go back and explain myself. This isn't HF where a bunch of dummies nod their heads in agreement just because a fancy plot is posted.

    All I hear is arguing, citing of Weiners, but no data and no specifics on these mysterious "intrusive" room treatments. Let's see the data. Let's see the room treatments. You already have the before and after impulse responses. It should take no more than 5 minutes to generate a full set of before after FR, CSD, and distortion plots. If you have the data, then post it. Talk is cheap.

    Actually, post the impulses responses, and let me or @ultrabike process them.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
    Serious likes this.
  13. E_Schaaf

    E_Schaaf MOT: Upscale Audio (Thread Judge Code-6 District)

    Friend BWC
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    2,366
    Dislikes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Pasadena, CA
    Home Page:
    [​IMG]

    Had to turn the speakers on their sides to make room for the screen. Soundstage is a bit diagonal thanks to the asymmetrical cabinets, but IDGAF. Scooted them up right to the ledge of the shelf and honestly they sound great - better than the other configurations I've tried.

    These L55s have scored me 4 noise complaints from my upstairs neighbor in the last 6 months, but worth it every time. Room opens up quite a bit on both sides, with seating being my bed, which also functions as a couch. Room treatments are 2 small shaggy area rugs and a "coffee table" at knee level.

    Living in the living room of a small 1-bedroom apartment isn't so bad with a setup like this.

    Awful photo quality but oh well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  14. westermac

    westermac Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2016
    Likes Received:
    2,172
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Milly-wau-kay
    Nice to see some discussion of room treatment. Measuring and treating my space has definitely been an eye-opening experience, but it can be tempting to fixate on the details and become the audio equivalent of a pixel-peeper. Don't fall into that trap (no pun intended).

    Not much to add to what's been said, other than to reiterate that thoughtful placement and listening positioning can go a long way toward mitigating inherent room issues (many of which wouldn't be practically correctable anyway). Unless you're listening in a state of the art control room, your room isn't neutral. Whatever. You still have some neutral-ish placement and positioning options at your disposal.

    Or if you're married, hopefully you followed Marv's advice and married someone who understands you. Ha. Audio advice of the year.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  15. leafy

    leafy Rando

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2017
    Likes Received:
    17
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Location:
    Taiwan
    I second this method, my theory is that this brings your ears onto the same plane with the drivers which is making the difference. This is very pronounced in my setup as I have a coaxial driver speaker, aligning my ears with the center of the tweeters make it sound like listening to gigantic headphones with a huge soundstage. It's far more immersive compared to listening sitting on the couch or behind the couch, where it sounds more concert hall like.
     
  16. mscott58

    mscott58 Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2015
    Likes Received:
    1,696
    Dislikes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Philly - Yo
    The first thing that came to mind was "that's the set-up Mad Max would have"...
     
    dark_energy, treboR, Victor and 5 others like this.
  17. Thad E Ginathom

    Thad E Ginathom Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2015
    Likes Received:
    6,361
    Dislikes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    India
    The last time I tried this, it was with a pair of large floor standers. Theoretically, I was putting my ears lower than they "should" have been. But yes, I think there are two or three things involved:

    1. The absorption behind and protection from the rear reflections.
    2. Height of the ear different relative to drivers.

    Maybe other factors, eg floor reflections, involved too.
     
  18. Kernel Kurtz

    Kernel Kurtz Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    May 19, 2018
    Likes Received:
    542
    Dislikes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Location:
    Winnipeg, Canada
    K, I'll attach a couple files, one bare room and one with traps. I have only concerned myself with bass below 300Hz, so these are not full spectrum. I'm totally good with the mid and upper frequency performance and the bass traps seem to make less difference to it anyway.

    Traps are 2x4'x4" Rockwool panels. There were 4 of them when the REW file was made, there are now 6 but I have not done any new measurements. I've shortened the ones adjacent to the Maggies a bit since as they were compressing my soundstage a bit too much. Also some smaller panels on some larger right angles. And the little triangular ones behind the TV make a huge difference that does not show in the measurements at all.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    • REW.zip
      File size:
      288.6 KB
      Views:
      21
    LetMeBeFrank and purr1n like this.
  19. enginerd

    enginerd Acquaintance

    Contributor
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Likes Received:
    34
    Dislikes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    13
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Just curious why you don't have room treatment directly behind the maggies. they are pretty notorious for needing to be a significant distance out from the wall since they are dipole or you end up with the backwave interfering significantly with the forward firing wave at lower frequencies. Treatment directly behind would help that. There were even serious recommendations in magnepan circles of using ficus trees behind maggies for that purpose (not sure what plant you have in the picture).
     
    Josh358 and treboR like this.
  20. zonto

    zonto Friend

    Friend
    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2015
    Likes Received:
    3,310
    Dislikes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Most Maggie diehards reported liking diffusion, not absorption, behind the speakers (if anything) because absorption apparently killed most of the speaker's magic/spaciousness. Hence the ficus trees, as a more WAF-focused form of diffusion. I've never had anything behind my Maggies.

    Relatedly, I have this article bookmarked, and someone on SBAF may have shared it a while ago, but thought it relevant to the discussion: https://sonicscoop.com/2017/12/14/t...t-tip-speaker-manuals-get-completely-wrong/2/

     
    Josh358 and elguapo like this.

Share This Page